The Sequential Order of Revelation and John's Hebraized use of Kai as the Vav Consecutive

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I must disagree in part on Rev. 4 & 5. I agree the first five seals are not God's wrath. Chapters 4 & 5 set the context and timing of the first seals. Notice the progression:
1. Jesus NOT seen in the throne room - so any time while Christ was on earth.
2. The Holy Spirit NOT YET sent down - so any time before Christ ascended.
3. Jesus NOT found worthy - so any time before Christ rose from the dead.

Friendo, how many times have I told you that is the "NOWHERE MAN UNDERSTANDING"? The Seals were not opened 2000 years ago, they get opened by Jesus, in Heaven during the 70th week Rev.4:1 calls it the HEREAFTER. You get ALL of your Eschatology wrong by listening to some mans idea from years ago, who was deceived by the deceiver Satan who never stops trying to trick us. They, and now you, have placed all of their eggs in one basket so to speak, whereas we are told by God to go line upon line, precept upon precept. So, you all allow ONE PASSAGE to form all of your Eschatology, you know why Satan loves that? It is easier to trip up people on one passage than 10 because the 10 will form a Holy Spirit Mosaic he can not overcome !!

All you have to do is read Rev. 4:1 its the HEREAFTER, Jesus has blown the Last Trump, we see the Church in Heaven in Rev. 4:4 who have on three things that Rev. 2 and 3 PROMISED ONLY OVERCOMERS would receive, White Robes (Raiment), Crowns of Gold (Life) and they to amidst Gods Throne. In Rev. 5:9-10 we see they have been WASHED by the Blood of Jesus, Angels need no such thing, and that they are kings and priests of God, which is what the 24 Elders means also, see 1 Chronicles 24, the 24 Orders of the Priesthood. So, in essence, you throw all of these clues overboard and go with the Nowhere Man interpretation, not realizing the fact that it states he's also NOT ON EARTH, NOR UNDER THE EARTH, means that can not be what the point of the verse is (that he's not in heaven). If one would just think a wee bit this would come out, but no, our ideas become all important it seems. So, where is Jesus at my friend? NOWHERE according to the full passage. You thinking that just means he was not in Heaven yet is preposterous brother, it simply meant Jesus was not seen in person(in body by John) because he was represented by a Slain Lamb !! And John finally understood that. 

It says no man was found Worthy, but the slain Lamb (Son of God, not a MAN in full but part God part man) was Worthy. The Holy Spirit was sent down, heck we see the Pre Trib Raptured Church in Heaven in Rev. 4 & 5. All of your Eschatology is ruled by one verse you have been deceived on, something that came from a man.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Then TIME PASSED as John wept MUCH.

4. Jesus FOUND worthy in a subsequent search.
5. Jesus ascended back into the throne room, having been gone about 33 years - Circa 32 AD
6. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit down.
7. Jesus went and got the book from the Father and began right then, opening the seals.

I explain all the reasons why this is wrong think above.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Therefore:

Seal 1 is the church, sent out with the Gospel
Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel.
Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age.

RAPTURE

Seal 6 begins the Day of the Lord

Seal 7 begins the 70th Week

Seal's 1-5 is the COMING Anti-Christ, the Seals are being opened just before the 1290 where the Jews (144,000 or really 3.5-5 million Jews, the 144,000 is CODE) flee Judea at the 1290 in Rev. 7. Seal #6 like the first 5 is just Jesus PROPHESYING what will soon come when God's Wrath finally falls in Rev. 8 via the 7 Trumps, in which all of God's Wrath resides. The Anti-Christ (Seals 1-5) can only go forth when he sees this Asteroid strike earth (God's Wrath), that is his cue, he knows there is 1260 days left. God/Holy Spirit quits restraining his movements. 

Seal #7 is Jesus/God's Wrath being released, only when the 7th Seal is opened can the Scrolled Book be read from. Try reading Rev. 10 now, the 7 Thunders are the 7 Trumps, when they sound time will be no more [as we know it] Jesus will be ruling. And the reason the book was bitter and sweet when John swallowed it was because of what the 7 Thunders (God's Wrath) brings, they bring Justice and Everlasting Rule by Jesus (SWEET) and Billions of deaths (BITTER). 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, the Jews begin to flee in 12:6, a second or two after the abomination. I picture Rev. 7 intermission as God closing the curtain, so to speak, so He can rearrange the setting for the next act: the start of the 70th week (inside the Day of the Lord).  God must see TWO EVENTS take place before He will allow the HURT to begin: first the sealing of the 144,000. Second, the church seen safely in heaven so He can pour out His wrath.

Satan chases the Jews for 1260 days in Rev. 12, the Beast Rules for 1260 days in Rev. 13, God Wrath lasts for 1260 days and starts in Rev. 8, and you cant understand that Rev. 12 and 13 are Parenthetical chapters? SMILE. Rev. 12 is the a RETELLING of Rev. 7, just like Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 all happen during the 42 months of God's Wrath and the coming Anti-Christs reign. You simply do not get the BoR at all. One verse has you tied in knots brother.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John wrote as the last event of the 6th seal that the Day of His wrath had come.
Do you see this only as the announcement?

Jesus is Prophesying what will soon come just like Joel 2:31 Prophesied what would come in 2500 years or so. Both speak about the Day of the Lord (Wrath), then show what it will be like, but we see it IN ACTION in Revelation 8, via the Fourth Trump. The Asteroid Impact (Trump #2), and the Fires (Trump #1) causes the sun and moons light to diminish by 1/3. Trump #3 is a poisonous fallout of some sorts after the Impact. No Scroll can be opened until ALL SEVEN SEALS are taken off, just like no door with 7 locks can be opened until all 7 locks are taken off. As Jesus opens each Seal he gives a COMING PREVIEW of Events soon to come. Just like me opening a closet door full of presents and with each lock I explain what my friends will SOON SEE, but they do not see them until the 7th lock is taken off.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The Antichrist has not even been revealed yet. If he is conquering, I don't think anyone yet knows who he is or will be.

Yes, he is revealed, Rev. 12 and 13 are Parenthetical chapters. Seals 1-5 is the soon to come Anti-Christ, wo goes forth at the Rev.8 Asteroid impact. He will 1.) Conquer for 42 months 2.) Take away Peace for 42 months 3.) Bring Famine for 42 months 4.) Bring Sickness and Death for 42 months 5.) He will kill the Gentiles (Martyrs) who come to Christ during his 42 month reign, or for that matter during the 70th week. Why do you think the Jews are Fleeing Judea in Rev. 7? See how it fits? They see the 1290 AoD (Image) and thus he has been Revealed. He will be an E.U. President. People can just come and read my posts here after the Pre Trib Rapture and elsewhere and they will see live what I wrote coming to pass. 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Revelation 15 shows the preparations for the vials, but then are poured out in chapter 16. The 70th week ends with the 7th vial.
Days of GT take place all during chapter 15, and up to the vials that will stop the days of GT.

The point was Rev. 8 has BOTH the Trumps being readied by the Angels in Heaven AND the Trumps sounding. But in Rev. 15&16 they split the chapters, even though in Revelation 15 they ready the Vials to be poured out in Heaven (just like in Rev. 8 via the 7 Trumps) but only pour them out in a DIFFERENT CHAPTER, which is why I say, all things being equal, if Rev. 8 has BOTH the Readying of the Trumps and the Trumps sounding, then Rev. 15&16 likewise are ONE CHAPTER. Remember, there were no chapter nor verses, but through logic, I am saying either both should be one chapter or both two chapters. In Reality the Trumps are three chapters, they cover Rev. 8, 9 and 16 because the Trumps are also the Three Woes. The Great Troubles start in Rev. 8, run through Rev. 9 and 16. (42 Months)

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, Jesus will not return until chapter 19! 

This just shows that you can not interpret prophetic scriptures brother. Revelation 16:19 is Jesus landing on Mt. Zion (Zech. 14:3-4). Rev. 11 (7th Trump sounding is the 7 Vials to come or 3rd Woe) Rev. 14:17-20 is the Wicked being placed in God's Wine-press. Rev. 16:19 places Babylon the Great (whole world that comes against God at Armageddon) in the exact same Wine-press of God's Wrath (try reading it). Lastly, the Marriage Supper in Rev. 19 is Armageddon, thus all four events are the EXACT SAME EVENT.  

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have already said that 11:4 through 11:13 is in parenthesis. 

The start of the 1260 days of testifying probably will begin on the same day the 42 months of trampling begins. They are back to back verses, one following the other.

With those verses (11:4-11:13) in parenthesis, then the 1260 days of fleeing will begin very shortly after the first two countdowns.

No, you said it was all sequential. So from Ch. 11-13 it's a sequence. There are too many mentions of 3.5 years for this section of Revelation to be a chronology, even overlapping the witnesses time and the trampling.

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I don't think the war in heaven will take long, so the 42 months of authority will begin some unknown by short time after the other countdowns.

In other words, while the Beast is exercising his 42 months, those that fled will be protected and fed, those that fled have not returned, the two witnesses are testifying, and the city is being trampled.

Indeed. These time periods must overlap in some fashion.

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If two things happen at the same time, it is very difficult to write that. One or the other must be written first. I believe the two witnesses show up when they do because the man of sin just moved to Jerusalem - probably with a Gentile army that will trample the city.

I disagree that they all are the same time. Perhaps the first two countdowns - the 42 months of trampling and the 1260 days of testifying will begin on the same day.

You're right, they are not all the same time, but they all must overlap and stay within 7 years. 

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Did you ever notice that the last countdown to END is the 42 months of authority? It will end in Revelation 19 when Jesus comes.

Yes.

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have never found where John gives a hint of when the other countdowns end. I have guessed that they will end at the 7th vial that ends the week.

Seems reasonable to me.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

No, you said it was all sequential. So from Ch. 11-13 it's a sequence. There are too many mentions of 3.5 years for this section of Revelation to be a chronology, even overlapping the witnesses time and the trampling.

Indeed. These time periods must overlap in some fashion.

You're right, they are not all the same time, but they all must overlap and stay within 7 years. 

Yes.

Seems reasonable to me.

They ARE sequential. The 1260 day countdown of fleeing will begin some unknown time after the 1260 day countdown of testifying.

The 42 month countdown  of trampling will begin some unknown time before the 42 months of authority.

| Starting the countdown of 42 months of trampling: 11:2 ->->->->->->->->->->->End of week | end countdown.
| Starting the countdown of 1260 days of testifying.  11:3 ->->->->->->->->->->->-End of week | end countdown.

"->" = time passing

-> -> | Starting the countdown of 1260 days of fleeing 12:6 ->->->->->->->->->->-End of week |->->| end countdown.

->-> | Starting the countdown of time, times and half of time 12:14 ->->->->->->->-End of week |->->|end countdown.

->->->-> | Starting of the 42 month countdown of authority 13:5 ->->->->->-->->-End of week |->-> ->->| end countdown.

This is how I see it. All five countdowns are running parallel from the time of 13:5 on through chapters 14, 15, and 16—the last half of the week. They have staggered beginnings. I see time moving between 11:1-3 and 12:6: perhaps 3 1/2 days or more. Time for the abomination and reaction time for those in Judea to begin their fleeing.

It seems, once John begins each countdown, the end is not mentioned. The only end we can pinpoint is the end of the 42 months of authority that will end when Jesus comes and captures the Beast.

The first four countdowns will all end just before, at, or just after the 7th vial that will end the week. Since the devil knows the city of Jerusalem will experience a terrible earthquake (7th vial) perhaps the Gentiles trampling the city will leave just before the 7th vial, since that countdown began first. John does not give us much information.

Another point: I have never talked to anyone who imagines the entire 42 months of trampling are finished in verse 2, before the 1260 days of testifying begins in verse 3. They all believe these times only BEGIN in the verse of mention. Some who don't recognize 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis, imagine that the two witnesses will testify in the first half of the week. They are mistaken.

Quote

they all must overlap and stay within 7 years. 

I would have said within 3 1/2 years. 

When Jesus was teaching me, He spoke and I heard His voice and His words. I was reading Daniel 9:27. When my eyes and my mind got to the word midst, SUDDENLY God spoke:

"You could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation."

I was instantly "in the spirit" and could not think to say anything—but my spirit man asked: "How would I find that?" Being "in the spirit" I heard what my spirit said. Jesus answered:

"Every time I mentioned an event that would go from the midpoint of the week to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint."

He was, of course, talking about the 42 months, the 1260 days, and the time, times, and half of time, written in chapters 11, 12, and 13. That makes these three chapters midpoint chapters.

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

They ARE sequential. The 1260 day countdown of fleeing will begin some unknown time after the 1260 day countdown of testifying.

I agree. But also parallel to the 42 months of authority or there would be 10.5 years, not 7. The flight occurs during the authority of the beast. 

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The 42 month countdown  of trampling will begin some unknown time before the 42 months of authority.

| Starting the countdown of 42 months of trampling: 11:2 ->->->->->->->->->->->End of week | end countdown.
| Starting the countdown of 1260 days of testifying.  11:3 ->->->->->->->->->->->-End of week | end countdown.

"->" = time passing

-> -> | Starting the countdown of 1260 days of fleeing 12:6 ->->->->->->->->->->-End of week |->->| end countdown.

->-> | Starting the countdown of time, times and half of time 12:14 ->->->->->->->-End of week |->->|end countdown.

->->->-> | Starting of the 42 month countdown of authority 13:5 ->->->->->-->->-End of week |->-> ->->| end countdown.

This is how I see it. All five countdowns are running parallel from the time of 13:5 on through chapters 14, 15, and 16—the last half of the week. They have staggered beginnings. I see time moving between 11:1-3 and 12:6: perhaps 3 1/2 days or more. Time for the abomination and reaction time for those in Judea to begin their fleeing.

The A of D begins the authority and the flight so the time of authority, fleeing and the time spent in the wilderness are all parallel. Only the testifying of the witnesses is not parallel and precedes the authority and flight.

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It seems, once John begins each countdown, the end is not mentioned. The only end we can pinpoint is the end of the 42 months of authority that will end when Jesus comes and captures the Beast.

True.

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Some who don't recognize 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis, imagine that the two witnesses will testify in the first half of the week. They are mistaken.

There are other reasons why the witnesses will be in the first half of the week, before the A of D and before the 42 months of power and authority of the beast.

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I would have said within 3 1/2 years. 

I allow 7 years as Daniel said, 'for one week'.

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

When Jesus was teaching me, He spoke and I heard His voice and His words. I was reading Daniel 9:27. When my eyes and my mind got to the word midst, SUDDENLY God spoke:

"You could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation."

I was instantly "in the spirit" and could not think to say anything—but my spirit man asked: "How would I find that?" Being "in the spirit" I heard what my spirit said. Jesus answered:

"Every time I mentioned an event that would go from the midpoint of the week to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint."

He was, of course, talking about the 42 months, the 1260 days, and the time, times, and half of time, written in chapters 11, 12, and 13. That makes these three chapters midpoint chapters.