Final generation in heaven 2000 years before born on earth and saved? How does that work?

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I am running around in circles trying to work this out and for the life of me can't see how this works, so maybe one of the 'pre trib' experts here can clear it all up, because if one of them can't then who could?

Please forgive if pre trib info is wrong; I admit I find it IMPOSSIBLE to follow and I am STILL, just looking for its' foundation. 
 

From what I understand THIS is the 'pre trib raptured church' SEEN IN HEAVEN and 'the reason' for the belief.

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.  So,

1.  HOW can those who will not even be born for another 2000 years, ALREADY be in heaven as 'the pre trib raptured' final generation church'?

2. Do they leave HEAVEN 'to be BORN especially a part of the final generation' and are BORN ALREADY SAVED to be 'raptured'?  If so, why?

3. How is 'the final generation of the church' FOUND in heaven 'before the Lamb Slain' (even before Jesus becomes the Lamb slain and arrives in heaven Himself)?

4. If 'the FINAL generation of the church' aka 'the elders sitting on the thrones' ALREADY HAVE BODIES, then why are they returning for their old carcass to be raised up again?  And what kind of 'bodies' do they have?

5. If unable to respond to these distinct questions with distinct answers, if at all possible, please don't offer up anything.  It would be super nice to 'find the foundation' that is being stood upon once and for all.  

6. How can 'elders' from the future be 'the things' that ARE and not the things that will be?

 

It's done through what's called intellectual gymnastics. 

Let 'em have it. The delusion is here and deception is rampant. I doubt there will be any reasoning that makes a difference. 

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Many commentaries deal with this subject and I am of the belief that just as John was in the Spirit free of the encumbrances of physical and temporal reality, so also are the 24 elders who are the spiritual representatives chosen by God from eternity to enact the particular disclosure scene they feature in.

 Rev 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

 

ARE you saying the 'elders' ARE the final generation pre trib rap church or they are not?  

Have you found a commentary that laid out the foundation and if so, would you be willing to share which one it was?  I am even willing to READ a book written by a MAN/WOMAN on the subject, if it answers those questions. Is there one you would suggest?

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's done through what's called intellectual gymnastics. 

Let 'em have it. The delusion is here and deception is rampant. I doubt there will be any reasoning that makes a difference. 

Wasn't counting on computers, and the internet, and knowledge running to and fro, and the book of Daniel being opened to shine such an intense LIGHT upon it.  Used to be you could convince someone just by telling them that is what it said.  Not so anymore. 

 

[Michael37]

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

ARE you saying the 'elders' ARE the final generation pre trib rap church or they are not?  

Have you found a commentary that laid out the foundation and if so, would you be willing to share which one it was?  I am even willing to READ a book written by a MAN/WOMAN on the subject, if it answers those questions. Is there one you would suggest?

I don't recall Revelation 4 & 5 ever being anything to do with the rapture or the tribulation and haven't read any commentaries that approach this heavenly scene with them in mind.

It's a vision put together in the theatre of heaven.

John is in a spiritual state and sees and hears what God wants him to see and hear on cue. 

Rev 5:13  And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

The events that are disclosed with the opening of the seven-sealed scroll are not binding on who the 24 elders are or where they come from. They are spiritual representatives chosen from eternity. When they were raptured is irrelevant. Their white robes and crowns indicate holiness and sovereignty, which are appropriate for those who attend the eternal throne of God. The song they sing of the Lamb's accomplishments portrays their eldership on behalf of all the redeemed in Christ, whom He has made kings and priests destined to reign on the earth. 

 Rev 5:8-10  Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.  (9)  And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,  (10)  And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."

[AdHoc]

21 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The questions that BEG to be answered, are the ones I asked.  The ones that are NEVER ANSWERED.  What do your questions have to do with anything written?  So, thank you as there is NO NEED to elaborate on MORE THINGS that aren't written.  

I'll make it easy.  WHAT IS THE FOUNDATION that pre trib is built upon?  What words of GOD lay that foundation down?  Which of the prophets laid that foundation?  What book or chapter can it be found in the words of God?   I understand the TRINITY isn't found, but FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT is.  Where is 'coming before trib, gathering,taking back to heaven' found so that I can SEE it AS something written?

O.K. Since we've discussed this at length in another thread I give you the short version.

God is angry. The Church is apostate (Revelation Chapters 2 and 3). Israel has broken the Law, killed the prophets and now embrace the Beast. The Gentiles are deep into "ungodliness". Idol worship, fornication, incest, sodomy, murder and corruption abound. At a certain point God's anger boils over. It is the time of His WRATH. As retribution for everything above, God pours out natural and supernatural disasters on the WHOLE EARTH. There is no corner or cave that does not feel the effect of His WRATH.

Up until God unleashes His WRATH, Christians have felt the wrath of men and the wrath of the Dragon. Suffering, sickness and death are what men and Satan offer Christians. But are Christians NOT SAVED FROM THE WRATH of God? Yes! How? By what Jesus did on Golgotha. So then, Christians who are NOT APPOINTED to God's WRATH will escape the Great Tribulation. But HOW can they escape if it covers ALL the earth? Well, there is only one place where one can escape - the sky! Under the earth is Hades and the dead. On earth is the WRATH of God. Only the sky is left.

So our Lord Jesus commands His angels to snatch (harpazo - Gk.) the Christians OFF EARTH for at least the duration of the Great Tribulation.

But God is a God of REWARD. He sets a goal for His servants and rewards them richly IF they reach His goal. As an incentive to holy living by His people, God will only snatch away THOSE WHOSE LIFESTYLE GLORIFIED GOD.

So ... we find in 1st Thessalonians 5:1-11 the following;

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do

Verse 1. Which times and seasons? Chapter 4 tells. The time and season of God's WRATH on ALL the earth. The "DAY" of the Lord.
Verse 2-3. This time of Great Tribulation will come suddenly and stealthily
Verse 4-7 declares the Christians position on earth. Light! "Let your "light" (good works) shine before men". Those Christians who do evil works will be caught off guard like a man who sleeps. The watchful meet the thief at the point of entry. The sleeping wake up to the point of a dagger.
Verse 8 calls the Christian to a LIFESTYLE - one that BELIEVES that, just as we escape the Lake of Fire, SO WE WILL ESCAPE THE GREAT TRIBULATION
Verse 9. The Christian is NOT APPOINTED to endure God's WRATH. But the word "appointed" does not mean "guaranteed". God assumed that the Christian has read His Word and knows of REWARD. God attributes to the Christian GOOD SENSE. But alas! FIVE OF TEN ARE "FOOLISH"
Verse 10 gives the basis for escaping the Tribulation - Christ's death. Christ's death is valid for BOTH the living Christian and the Christian who has died. BOTH shall "LIVE" (because the dead are resurrected) "TOGETHER" (be snatched TO HIM as ONE GROUP), "WITH HIM" (in the clouds)
Verse 11. "COMFORT one another". Why comfort? Because the Thessalonian Church thought that the dead would be left behind in Hades under the earth. The Rapture is ONLY for Christians and ONLY for the LIVING. But Paul corrects this idea. ALL will be ALIVE! TOGETHER will we be snatched away. There is no talk of "returning to heaven". Only Jesus and a few living - like those of Matthew 27:52-53 are in heaven. The dead Christians are with the Lord in HADES (Ps.139:8).

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Michael37 said:

I don't recall Revelation 4 & 5 ever being anything to do with the rapture or the tribulation and haven't read any commentaries that approach this heavenly scene with them in mind.

It's a vision put together in the theatre of heaven.

John is in a spiritual state and sees and hears what God wants him to see and hear on cue. 

Rev 5:13  And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

The events that are disclosed with the opening of the seven-sealed scroll are not binding on who the 24 elders are or where they come from. They are spiritual representatives chosen from eternity. When they were raptured is irrelevant. Their white robes and crowns indicate holiness and sovereignty, which are appropriate for those who attend the eternal throne of God. The song they sing of the Lamb's accomplishments portrays their eldership on behalf of all the redeemed in Christ, whom He has made kings and priests destined to reign on the earth. 

 Rev 5:8-10  Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.  (9)  And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,  (10)  And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."

Yes then, I think, and thanks for sharing your point of view on that point

So, ANY chance you can lay out the foundation of the pre trib rapt theory?  (It is really hard to believe you have never heard that 'the elders' being in Chapter 4 is the proof of a pre trib rapt of the church as it seems to be one of the things almost everyone says the same  -  and no one says the same thing about hardly anything when it comes to it). 

This is why I am asking for ANYONE who CAN, to put forth the foundation.  And you would be surprised at how well NO ONE ever does.  But everyone still puts forth EVERYTHING ELSE, like this stuff here, but never ever that.  

So, if you could, I would really appreciate it.  

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do

FAITH AND LOVE AND THE HOPE OF SALVATION IS WHAT KEEPS THE WRATH OF GOD FROM FALLING UPON US. That is why we are NOT appointed to it like those who do NOT HAVE FAITH.  

NOTICE THE 'DRESS' WE ARE TOLD TO PUT ON?  DOES IT SOUND LIKE A WEDDING DRESS OR BATTLE GEAR?  

whether WE WAKE OR SLEEP, doesn't matter SO THERE IS NOTHING TO ESCAPE.  

Wrath ISN'T falling on us, it is falling on them.  All we have to do is KEEP THE FAITH.  Trust in the Lord GOD.  Endure to the end.  Don't be taken.  Don't be overcome.  Stand.  Put on the armor to withstand the fiery darts of Satan. With what death will you glorify God?  Fear not man who can kill the flesh.  Some of you will have 10 day trial.  The ALIVE AND REMAINING will be changed LEAVING no one LEFT to come back for in 7 years to be 'changed'.  Christ ENDURED THE CROSS for the JOY THAT WAS SET BEFORE HIM.  WHAT CAME FIRST?  OUR EXAMPLE OF PICKING UP OUR CROSS AND FOLLOWING HIM.  He prays we are not taken out of the world. 

WHERE ARE ALL THE PRE TRIB VERSES THAT SHOW US THAT ALL THOSE VERSES ARE NOT TRUTH FOR ONE AND ONLY ONE GENERATION? 

BECAUSE UNLESS YOU CAN SHOW WHERE ALL THAT BEING VOIDED OUT IS OK WITH GOD, THEN I AM GOING TO CONTINUE ON ASSUMING IT IS NOT OK WITH GOD TO DO THAT TO HIS WORDS.  




 

 

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Well, there is only one place where one can escape - the sky!

  ESCAPE???  We don't need to ESCAPE.  We have been given power OVER ALL OUR ENEMIES.  All we need to do is endure to the end without falling into deception and losing our salvation aka becoming a part of the DEAD.  God knows He has given us plenty of warning.  If we haven't gotten prepared by now, then we AREN'T LISTENING to what is written at all, are we?  

GOD IS SENDING TWO WITNESSES.  Do you BELIEVE that Gods Wrath will be falling upon them?  NO?  Me neither.  So why would you think it would be falling upon us who have FOLLOWED what is written and have not been deceived and have endured to the end?  

When exactly do you see the 'day of Salvation' coming to an end?  Would that be when the two witnesses rise up in FULL VIEW of everyone and HEAVEN OPENS?   

Do you think MAYBE AT THAT POINT, WHEN HEAVEN OPENS would be the time when 'Tribulation such as the world has never seen' will be poured out?  


 

 

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

So our Lord Jesus commands His angels to snatch (harpazo - Gk.) the Christians OFF EARTH for at least the duration of the Great Tribulation.

I would agree with this timing but since it is after the workings of Satan, it isn't pre trib, it's pre wrath.
 

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
THE WORKINGS OF SATAN WITH ALL LYING SIGNS AND WONDERS.  THE WHOLE WORLD DECEIVED. THE TWO WITNESSES KILLED, 

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

2 THESS
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(CERTAINLY the answer as to why no one will be screaming the lake of fire for all eternity)

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

(It is really hard to believe you have never heard that 'the elders' being in Chapter 4 is the proof of a pre trib rapt of the church as it seems to be one of the things almost everyone says the same  -  and no one says the same thing about hardly anything when it comes to it). 

Anyone using Revelation 4 & 5 to prove anything about the rapture or the tribulation is overreaching. I pay no heed to such travesties.

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

BECAUSE UNLESS YOU CAN SHOW WHERE ALL THAT BEING VOIDED OUT IS OK WITH GOD, THEN I AM GOING TO CONTINUE ON ASSUMING IT IS NOT OK WITH GOD TO DO THAT TO HIS WORDS. 

Be my guest. You never spent one sentence of the text I used as proof. That's your right, but it sure stunts debate.

 

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

ESCAPE???  We don't need to ESCAPE.  We have been given power OVER ALL OUR ENEMIES.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man

 7 And it was given unto him (the Beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations

If you insist on contradicting what the Holy Spirit thinks, and knows, why ... what basis for debate have we?

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

What John saw was still yet future. It will occur during the tribulation which has not yet occurred.  The 24 elders could be actual people,  ( maybe the 12 sons of Jacob and the 12 Apostles ) or they could be symbolic of all the saved from all time.  What I do know is that we weren't in heaven before we were born. The only group I know of that really believes that is the Mormons.