The souls under the altar (Rev. 6:9-11); are they killed before or during the tribulation period?

[kenny2212]

Rev. 6: 9-11 (NKJV) -

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Well I believe they are killed before the tribulation (not only because of Rev. 6:12-17 which I believe is the rapture), but also because of 1 Thess. 4: 13-18 (NKJV) - 

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will BRING WITH HIM those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (emphasis mine).

Please note that the "bring with him" in verse 14 means that the spirits of believers who die before the rapture go to be with Jesus in heaven (hence in Rev. 6:9 the souls of the martyred believers ARE IN HEAVEN).

Their souls are not sleeping like some say. Only their bodies are.

Rev. 20:4-6 (NKJV) - 

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Believers who die after the rapture (during the tribulation period) do soul sleep.

If most of what I've written is correct, then the rider of the white horse of the first seal can't be the antichrist (who is revealed after the rapture).

Thanks for reading. Any questions or comments?

Edited November 28, 2022 by kenny2212

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Rev. 6: 9-11 (NKJV) -

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Well I believe they are killed before the tribulation (not only because of Rev. 6:12-17 which I believe is the rapture), but also because of 1 Thess. 4: 13-18 (NKJV) - 

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will BRING WITH HIM those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (emphasis mine).

Please note that the "bring with him" in verse 14 means that the spirit of believers who die before the rapture go to be with Jesus in heaven (hence in Rev. 6:9 the souls of the martyred believers ARE IN HEAVEN).

Their souls are not sleeping like some say. Only their bodies are.

Rev. 20:4-6 (NKJV) - 

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Believers who die after the rapture (during the tribulation period) do soul sleep.

If most of what I've written is correct, then the rider of the white horse of the first seal can't be the antichrist (who is revealed after the rapture).

Thanks for reading. Any questions or comments?

I believe that Revelation 20:4-6 answer when they were killed.

 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

There are three groups here.

1. Those beheaded for the witness of Jesus - those of the Church age starting with Stephen
2. Those beheaded for the Word of God - all since Abel who died upholding God's Word
3. Those who did not submit to the Beast - all those of the last 3 ½ years of this age

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

I believe that Revelation 20:4-6 answer when they were killed.

 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

There are three groups here.

1. Those beheaded for the witness of Jesus - those of the Church age starting with Stephen
2. Those beheaded for the Word of God - all since Abel who died upholding God's Word
3. Those who did not submit to the Beast - all those of the last 3 ½ years of this age

Concerning your point number three, Tribulation saints, and possibly before the official start.

The method of execution, “beheading,” is engaging in a historical, present, and future context. By whom and when was beheading the favorite method of executing Christians and infidels?

We all know the history of the dark ages, crusades, inquisitions, and Muslims.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 (KJV) The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Could a threepeat be in store?

[kenny2212]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I believe that Revelation 20:4-6 answer when they were killed.

 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

There are three groups here.

1. Those beheaded for the witness of Jesus - those of the Church age starting with Stephen
2. Those beheaded for the Word of God - all since Abel who died upholding God's Word
3. Those who did not submit to the Beast - all those of the last 3 ½ years of this age

Stephen wasn't beheaded; he was stoned to death!

We are not told how Abel was killed.

Only believers who die during the tribulation period rule and reign with Christ during the millennium. 

Believers who die before the tribulation period go in the resurrection/rapture. The rapture/resurrection signals the beginning of the tribulation period.

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by kenny2212

[truth7t7]

8 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

Stephen wasn't beheaded; he was stoned to death!

We are not told how Abel was killed.

Only believers who die during the tribulation period rule and reign with Christ during the millennium. 

Believers who die before the tribulation period go in the resurrection/rapture. The rapture/resurrection signals the beginning of the tribulation period.

 

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture or Millennial Kingdom on this earth found in scripture

Jesus returns after the tribulation in the resurrection of all in final judgement (The End)

[missmuffet]

39 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture or Millennial Kingdom on this earth found in scripture

Jesus returns after the tribulation in the resurrection of all in final judgement (The End)

Suit yourself.

[kenny2212]

4 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Suit yourself.

Thank you missmuffet for the savage reply to truth7t7. 

Edited November 26, 2022 by kenny2212

[missmuffet]

27 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

Thank you missmuffet for the savage reply to truth7t7. 

It wasn't savage it was honest. 

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Concerning your point number three, Tribulation saints, and possibly before the official start.

The method of execution, “beheading,” is engaging in a historical, present, and future context. By whom and when was beheading the favorite method of executing Christians and infidels?

We all know the history of the dark ages, crusades, inquisitions, and Muslims.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 (KJV) The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Could a threepeat be in store?

I'm going to have to plead ignorance on this one. I've pondered it and I know that there are no unmeaningful words in scripture, but why the Holy Spirit used this I can only admit that I don't know. Stephen was not beheaded but our Lord, Who is "seated" at the right hand of the Majesty on High, stood. I don't doubt that Stephen is one of these martyrs but he was not beheaded. For a short while I thought it might have to do with death severing us from the Church (for our bodies are members of Christ) and Christ is the Head, but not all of those three groups was in the Church. E.g John Baptist.

Sorry.

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Stephen wasn't beheaded; he was stoned to death!

We are not told how Abel was killed.

Only believers who die during the tribulation period rule and reign with Christ during the millennium. 

Believers who die before the tribulation period go in the resurrection/rapture. The rapture/resurrection signals the beginning of the tribulation period.

 

Hi Kenny. Thanks for pointing that out. See my answer above to Dennis.

But you have made a fatal mistake (one that many make). To be in the Kingdom you need:
° Rebirth
° Baptism
° Faith in Messiah
° An intimate relationship with the Father and Son
° Obedience to God
° Works that show your willingness to serve God and men

Both Moses and Elijah were in the kingdom in Matthew 17.