The Important People In The Church

[missmuffet]

4 minutes ago, Starise said:

Frankly I could just walk away from all of it right now. That would be letting it go right? I will be off due to sickness tomorrow and eerily, I am going to enjoy the break. I am very tempted to take an extended break. It's probably a good thing I'm married, because my wife will keep me grounded. God forbid anything should happen to her for many reasons, but among them, I would maybe just sell everything and go live in a van. I really don't need the headaches that come with all of this, and if this is edification then I don't need to be edified.

Your wife may keep you grounded but what is most important is that the Holy Spirit will keep you grounded. Have you ever thought of downsizing? Have a good long talk to God about how you are feeling. Ask Him to guide and direct you in all of your frustrations. Then sit back and see what God wants to do with your life. His timing is very different than your timing. 

[AnOrangeCat]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

Thanks @AnOrangeCat for comments. Does the very act of observing one as 'stooping' say anything about that approach? If we are all the same, then why it it stooping? I get it. For Jesus it was stooping.

Yeah, I agree there. And that's what makes it such a powerful example. If the very Son of God will so humble Himself so profoundly should we.

[Starise]

On 12/3/2022 at 1:25 PM, missmuffet said:

Your wife may keep you grounded but what is most important is that the Holy Spirit will keep you grounded. Have you ever thought of downsizing? Have a good long talk to God about how you are feeling. Ask Him to guide and direct you in all of your frustrations. Then sit back and see what God wants to do with your life. His timing is very different than your timing. 

Well, this wasn't supposed to be about me specifically. It was supposed to be more about uncovering some of the issue I have seen over the years and continue to see.

It's simply hypocritical for belivers to say we are all the same in the Lord, but then show the exact OPPOSITE behavior. I can only share a few of my personal experiences which I find to be very unsettling and demoralizing if I choose to dwell on them.

Yes we all have faults. I get that, but we should have grown out of hoarding our toys a long time ago. Holding onto them is like holding onto nothing really. Noone is out to take anything away. We are all out to work as a solid unit. I suspect we will find many tares at the end who loved being in the limelight. If we can't share ministry with people different than us who the Lord has gifted, we are at fault. For me it has been hugely demotivating.

I think it would be interesting some time to swap members between churches. You know, have a swap church day where half the people from one church attend another church and visa versa. Shoot lets mix ethinic groups and nationalities. I LOVED it when we had a sounth African pastor speak not long ago. How about a swap positions day? Probably wouldn't be as popular. I really think we need a regular pastor rotation seriously.

The only issue I can see happening with the swap half a church idea, is we would read of a church murder because someone sat in sister so and sos seat.

 

[missmuffet]

24 minutes ago, Starise said:

Well, this wasn't supposed to be about me specifically. It was supposed to be more about uncovering some of the issue I have seen over the years and continue to see.

It's simply hypocritical for belivers to say we are all the same in the Lord, but then show the exact OPPOSITE behavior. I can only share a few of my personal experiences which I find to be very unsettling and demoralizing if I choose to dwell on them.

Yes we all have faults. I get that, but we should have grown out of hoarding our toys a long time ago. Holding onto them is like holding onto nothing really. Noone is out to take anything away. We are all out to work as a solid unit. I suspect we will find many tares at the end who loved being in the limelight. If we can't share ministry with people different than us who the Lord has gifted, we are at fault. For me it has been hugely demotivating.

I think it would be interesting some time to swap members between churches. You know, have a swap church day where half the people from one church attend another church and visa versa. Shoot lets mix ethinic groups and nationalities. I LOVED it when we had a sounth African pastor speak not long ago. How about a swap positions day? Probably wouldn't be as popular. I really think we need a regular pastor rotation seriously.

The only issue I can see happening with the swap half a church idea, is we would read of a church murder because someone sat in sister hooches seat.

 

I don't attend a Church. So that would not be an avenue I could go down. It sounds like some of this you wanted to be about you. It sounds like you have burdens. Maybe overwhelmed at times.

Edited December 3, 2022 by missmuffet

[The_Patriot21]

I hear this...a lot. Now I'm not going to say your wrong... because no church is perfect and they all have problems. That is a fact.

I see a lot of people sick of the church and want to leave. Or even see home church as a solution.

Only, it's not. A home church is a lot of work and not without it's problems as well. 

Now, I'm not dissing home churches. I think they have their place.

However, here's the thing. Leaving the church doesn't fix the problem, it's running from it. And if we run once we will run again, if things in our home church get rough, we will run again.

What we can do is adjust our attitude. We can't change others, but we can change our attitude towards them. To many people look for a church that provides for their needs....and are willing to serve only if their needs are met.

That attitude is human nature. We all struggle with it. But for a church to work, be it home church or conventional we need to change it.  We need to have a servants attitude. We need to have the attitude of church first, ask what we can do and just do it. Plug in. Regardless of what others are doing-or not doing.

In my last church we had a gentleman named Ray. There every Sunday, very friendly and welcoming if you needed something he'd do it. Thing is though... church rarely asked him to do anything. He wasn't a elder or deacon. Rarely got any public recognition nor did he want any. 

Then he passed away from COVID. It was only then the church realized how much they'd taken him for granted. He had pretty much single handedly kept the church going. Something broke? He fixed it. Usually without telling anyone. Cleaned the bathrooms. The church did Christmas shoeboxes...well the money to ship them always came from an anonymous source. Well, after he passed it became abundantly clear he was that anonymous source -He paid that several thousand dollar shipping fee out of his own pocket, on top of his normal giving.

And he wasn't rich. He was an electrician for a local coal mine. He wasn't poor...but he wasn't made of money. 

We're still finding things around the church that he was doing and now needs done and projects he started and didn't get finished.

That's the kind of attitude we need to have if we want whatever church we attend. That attitude will change the world if we all adopted it. He was really a pillar of that church, a pillar no one realized until after he was gone.

[tony wesmit]

7 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Yes, and clicks, imo, are definitely detrimental to the body of Christ, especially when they “gang up” on someone.  

have you had that, that is witchcraft and should be reported to pastor

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, Starise said:

The only issue I can see happening with the swap half a church idea, is we would read of a church murder because someone sat in sister hooches seat.

That is an interesting observation I have also noticed at our church and visiting other churches. It seems people mark their territory in the pews.

When I first started to attend my church, I noticed people always sat in the same places, save the first three pew rows closest to the pulpit. The first pew does not have a place in front to grab a hymnal or special offering envelope, or pen, or I would sit there with plenty of legroom.

Therefore, I always sit in the second row of pews, all by my lonesome. I would like to know why the congregation elects to sit as far back in the pews as possible.

The pastor gets a bird’s eye view of me “squirming” when he touches on something I have been guilty of or needs repentance.

I am accustomed to and at ease sitting up front close to authority. Fourteen teachers gave me special privileges in my twelve years of grade school. Dennis, come sit up next to me so I can keep an eye on you. I suppose I would spare our pastor from any special requests, given my history.  😊

[Marathoner]

10 hours ago, Starise said:

I believe God has been working on me as I have always had a problem when looking at human interaction in terms of supposed status with relation to value.

You might rightly say I have a problem with authority when you read this, but I don't really think it's a problem with authority, it's a problem with how authority and status are viewed within a church and what seems to be some of the benefits that go along with it and the disadvantages that seem to follow those who are not as high in the chain.

TBH I'm the type of person that would be totally happy with home church so we could just get on with study and worship. Leave the other fluff at the door. From a psychological prespective, it could be said that people like me might have a poor self image and therefore we value status as a way to make ourselves feel better about ourselves, and if we are led to see value with a status label, then if we are at a low place in any organization, we feel devalued. I have tried hard to look at myself objectively. I don't think it's that I am that way as I know my worth in Christ. I feel valuable in Christ, I think it's the way I see fellow men using and viewing one another based on all of this I see as frustrating. It's like if you shake up a bunch of debris in water, some of it floats to the top, while other of it migrates to the lower levels of sedement, and there's the old saying about what tends to float to the top in the loo. Is that telling us something? I don't know.

We are often laid with a guilt trip by our brothers saying we need to all "assume our positions" happily to the Lord. "Be a happy toilet bowl cleaner". Hmmmmm  I guess that means maybe we need to get the stuff that floated to the top off first in order to clean that toilet.

When we enter churches we often enter more than just a bunch of people who love to serve the Lord wherever that may be. We enter buddy clubs, and internal power structures and clicks. And no matter how you slice it, the pastor has his favorite families and friends. Nothing wrong with that, but have you ever noticed how much it influences who does what? I don't think you need to look very hard for that one.

I see Christians being fed two different messages at many churches. "We are all the same, no matter what we do" Jesus loves little toilet bowl cleaners too Be that happy nursery worker in there with the babies every week. Then we have the periodic recognition times usually in main service. "Let's have a hand for our new, ms. so and so, our latest paid position" Everyone claps for them. Close friends with pastor-check. Comes from old church family-check. Have they even considered the other 300 members at all? Pastors being front and center always get double honor, yet we are told the most important work is outside the church. How many pastors do we see cleaning toilets or heads of committees actually doing any of the work they fully expect others to do? Oh, but the Lord didn't make us toilet bowl cleaners, no. Our skills are too important for that.

Brother, I received the following a long time ago. I'm pleased to share it with you:

Those who strive for recognition have already received their reward. 

Consider that for a while. 

[Starise]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

That is an interesting observation I have also noticed at our church and visiting other churches. It seems people mark their territory in the pews.

When I first started to attend my church, I noticed people always sat in the same places, save the first three pew rows closest to the pulpit. The first pew does not have a place in front to grab a hymnal or special offering envelope, or pen, or I would sit there with plenty of legroom.

Therefore, I always sit in the second row of pews, all by my lonesome. I would like to know why the congregation elects to sit as far back in the pews as possible.

The pastor gets a bird’s eye view of me “squirming” when he touches on something I have been guilty of or needs repentance.

I am accustomed to and at ease sitting up front close to authority. Fourteen teachers gave me special privileges in my twelve years of grade school. Dennis, come sit up next to me so I can keep an eye on you. I suppose I would spare our pastor from any special requests, given my history.  😊

Me? I'm trying to avoid the spit.

14 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

Brother, I received the following a long time ago. I'm pleased to share it with you:

Those who strive for recognition have already received their reward. 

Consider that for a while. 

How very true. 

5 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

I hear this...a lot. Now I'm not going to say your wrong... because no church is perfect and they all have problems. That is a fact.

I see a lot of people sick of the church and want to leave. Or even see home church as a solution.

Only, it's not. A home church is a lot of work and not without it's problems as well. 

Now, I'm not dissing home churches. I think they have their place.

However, here's the thing. Leaving the church doesn't fix the problem, it's running from it. And if we run once we will run again, if things in our home church get rough, we will run again.

What we can do is adjust our attitude. We can't change others, but we can change our attitude towards them. To many people look for a church that provides for their needs....and are willing to serve only if their needs are met.

That attitude is human nature. We all struggle with it. But for a church to work, be it home church or conventional we need to change it.  We need to have a servants attitude. We need to have the attitude of church first, ask what we can do and just do it. Plug in. Regardless of what others are doing-or not doing.

In my last church we had a gentleman named Ray. There every Sunday, very friendly and welcoming if you needed something he'd do it. Thing is though... church rarely asked him to do anything. He wasn't a elder or deacon. Rarely got any public recognition nor did he want any. 

Then he passed away from COVID. It was only then the church realized how much they'd taken him for granted. He had pretty much single handedly kept the church going. Something broke? He fixed it. Usually without telling anyone. Cleaned the bathrooms. The church did Christmas shoeboxes...well the money to ship them always came from an anonymous source. Well, after he passed it became abundantly clear he was that anonymous source -He paid that several thousand dollar shipping fee out of his own pocket, on top of his normal giving.

And he wasn't rich. He was an electrician for a local coal mine. He wasn't poor...but he wasn't made of money. 

We're still finding things around the church that he was doing and now needs done and projects he started and didn't get finished.

That's the kind of attitude we need to have if we want whatever church we attend. That attitude will change the world if we all adopted it. He was really a pillar of that church, a pillar no one realized until after he was gone.

I can see your points which are all good.

[Starise]

6 hours ago, missmuffet said:

I don't attend a Church. So that would not be an avenue I could go down. It sounds like some of this you wanted to be about you. It sounds like you have burdens. Maybe overwhelmed at times.

I didn't really want it to be about me. I read back over some of this and I missed that you were really trying to be helpful and I apologize for my response.

I think the point of my thread was to say that we should all be important people.