Reconciling 6 Days with 13.7 Billion Years

[LiveWire]

7 hours ago, JimmyB said:

I tried to research the source of these verses but came up empty.  Did you write them yourself?

It's the same Tanakh that our Yiddish Member here uses.

It's used in Her Synagogue daily.

I have access because I am Sephardim and connected to same Libraries.

 

There's actually 2 Tanakh's with slightly variations between them and I copy/pasted from both in this Thread.

Edited July 9, 2023 by LiveWire

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, LiveWire said:

You said to examine Verses 16, 19, 21 and I posted them for you.

And I beat you to it.  So, again, your point?  My point about those verses is that they show that the land of Israel was invaded by an army from the north.  Yes, God sent them.  But THEY did the damage.

And please quit missing the whole point.  That army devastated the land so that it was uninhabitable, and the Hebrew words that communicate are the EXACT SAME words in Gen 1:2.

Again, translating "tohu" as "formless" or "without form" is idiotic.  All objects HAVE form.  And invading armies cannot make the land they DESTROY "formless" "unformed".  What a nonsense concept.

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

AM I confusing you with another poster?

Maybe. 

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 Did you say you believed 4:19 on was about the AFTERMATH of the fall of Jerusalem or not?

I quoted from v.16 through v.23, to show that "the land" was DESTROYED by an invading army, which is how God punished Israel throughout it's OT history for their repeated unfaithfulness.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 IF you said you BELIEVED it was then HOW does 'NO MAN, NO FRUITFUL, NO LIGHT, TOHU'

Just look at all the times God removed Israel as a nation.  Who wasn't killed was taken into captivity by the other nation.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

NOT find conflict with 
38
28So Jeremiah abode in the court of the prison until the day that Jerusalem was taken: and he was there when Jerusalem was taken.

Seems clear enough.  Jeremiah witnessed the "taking" of Jerusalem.  

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

39
10But Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard left of the poor of the people, which had nothing, in the land of Judah, and gave them vineyards and fields at the same time.

11Now Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon gave charge concerning Jeremiah to Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard, saying,

12Take him, and look well to him, and do him no harm; but do unto him even as he shall say unto thee.

13So Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard sent, and Nebushasban, Rabsaris, and Nergalsharezer, Rabmag, and all the king of Babylon's princes;

14Even they sent, and took Jeremiah out of the court of the prison, and committed him unto Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, that he should carry him home: so he dwelt among the people.

Jer 4 ends with v.31.  Why are you bringing up a totally different passage and context?

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

40
2And the captain of the guard took Jeremiah, and said unto him, The LORD thy God hath pronounced this evil upon this place.

3Now the LORD hath brought it, and done according as he hath said: because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed his voice, therefore this thing is come upon you.

4And now, behold, I loose thee this day from the chains which were upon thine hand. If it seem good unto thee to come with me into Babylon, come; and I will look well unto thee: but if it seem ill unto thee to come with me into Babylon, forbear: behold, all the land is before thee: whither it seemeth good and convenient for thee to go, thither go.

5Now while he was not yet gone back, he said, Go back also to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, whom the king of Babylon hath made governor over the cities of Judah, and dwell with him among the people: or go wheresoever it seemeth convenient unto thee to go. So the captain of the guard gave him victuals and a reward, and let him go.

6Then went Jeremiah unto Gedaliah the son of Ahikam to Mizpah; and dwelt with him among the people that were left in the land.

Ch 40 of WHAT book???

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

EITHER there WAS NO MAN or there was
EITHER there WAS NO FRUIT or there was
EITHER there was light or ther wasn't
EITHER the mountains trembled or they didn't
EITHER it was at the FIERCE ANGER of the Lord or it was by men
Because I CAN'T say, at least not with a forked tongue

Just read what Jer 4 SAYS and accept "what is written".

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 It was sudden but took awhile

That means the attack came on quickly.  Of course EVERY sacking of "the land" takes a while.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

There was no man but there were men.

There were men there, like Jeremiah, who were there, until there was no one left.

Seems you are conflating verses to make up a contradiction.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The fruitful place had become a wilderness although it still had fruit.

It was fruitful until the invading army destroyed all the fruit.  Conflation again.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If it wasn't you then hopefully whoever it was, will reply and if so, I apologize for the mix up. Either way, I understand the truth of it most likely it won't be addressed either way...these things tend to get pushed aside in favor of the same old things. 

So, please tell me "the truth of it" since what you have posted shows a contradiction between verses.  What is that truth?

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, BeyondET said:

But the forming, origin, the Genesis of scripture.

Genesis 1:1 is about immediate creation from nothing.  No forming at all.  v.2ff shows that in the restoration, God did re-shape some things.

12 hours ago, BeyondET said:

The young earth theory is derived from counting the generations to the present.

Yes, that is a theory.  Yet, the obvious apparent age of the entire universe and earth shows that everything is very very old.  And all without any kind of evolution, which is just a stupid theory that leaves God out of the equation.  God spoke, and everything existed.  Bing badda boom!

12 hours ago, BeyondET said:

My question is, where in the bible doesn't it say to count and use them to know age of the heavens and earth.

Or, where does it say?  Neither way.  God doesn't speak like that.  He gave us what He gave us and we are to understand what He gave us.

One great glaring error is the faulty translation of "tohu" in 1:2 as well as in Jer 4:23 in many translations.  First, every object HAS form, so God NEVER created anything that had no form.  Ludicrous.  And per Jer 4:23, no destroying army can render 'the land' formless.  When it is destroyed, it is "unsightly", just as the LXX translated "tohu" in Gen 1:2.  A "wasteland" is certainly "unsightly".  

Those who hold to "formless" in either verse are just resisting the truth.

God never creates anything without form.  And invading armies who destroy 'the land' cannot make 'the land' formless.  Both are impossible.

 

[LiveWire]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

And I beat you to it.  So, again, your point?  My point about those verses is that they show that the land of Israel was invaded by an army from the north.  Yes, God sent them.  But THEY did the damage.

And please quit missing the whole point.  That army devastated the land so that it was uninhabitable, and the Hebrew words that communicate are the EXACT SAME words in Gen 1:2.

Again, translating "tohu" as "formless" or "without form" is idiotic.  All objects HAVE form.  And invading armies cannot make the land they DESTROY "formless" "unformed".  What a nonsense concept.

I showed you it was not a man army but of Angels, the WATCHERS!

 

Angels can turn Earth into Verse 23 humans CAN'T!

 

Don't you have any SENSE of Reality?

 

Act like you can READ!

Edited July 9, 2023 by LiveWire

[LiveWire]

BTW, what does FREEGRACE mean?

Jesus is Free?

 

[JimmyB]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Genesis 1:1 is about immediate creation from nothing.  No forming at all.  v.2ff shows that in the restoration, God did re-shape some things.

Yes, that is a theory.  Yet, the obvious apparent age of the entire universe and earth shows that everything is very very old.  And all without any kind of evolution, which is just a stupid theory that leaves God out of the equation.  God spoke, and everything existed.  Bing badda boom!

Or, where does it say?  Neither way.  God doesn't speak like that.  He gave us what He gave us and we are to understand what He gave us.

One great glaring error is the faulty translation of "tohu" in 1:2 as well as in Jer 4:23 in many translations.  First, every object HAS form, so God NEVER created anything that had no form.  Ludicrous.  And per Jer 4:23, no destroying army can render 'the land' formless.  When it is destroyed, it is "unsightly", just as the LXX translated "tohu" in Gen 1:2.  A "wasteland" is certainly "unsightly".  

Those who hold to "formless" in either verse are just resisting the truth.

God never creates anything without form.  And invading armies who destroy 'the land' cannot make 'the land' formless.  Both are impossible.

 

Just for fun, I decided to look at various commentaries to see what they said about Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.  Not a single commentary agrees with your misinterpretation.  And as I pointed out previously, not a single translation does either.  So, you stand alone.

Beyond that, logically what you claim makes no sense.  First God created the earth, and then it was destroyed?  By whom or what?  Is there some force or being that is equal to or greater than God the creator?  Another deity that is equally powerful that undid what God did?

That makes absolutely no sense!  God is God!  He created the heavens and the earth.  So if His creation was ruined, who/what did it?

Exodus 20:3, " “You shall have no other gods before me."

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, LiveWire said:

I showed you it was not a man army but of Angels, the WATCHERS!

Please provide the specific verse where you found that.  Thanks.

1 hour ago, LiveWire said:

Angels can turn Earth into Verse 23 humans CAN'T!

Opinion.  And "unformed" is STILL ludicrous.  The land was destroyed.

7 A lion has come out of his lair; a destroyer of nations has set out. He has left his place to lay waste your land. Your towns will lie in ruins without inhabitant.

This is not a land "unformed" in ANY sense.  The land was DESTROYED!!

16 “Tell this to the nations, proclaim concerning Jerusalem: ‘A besieging army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah.

An army from a distant land.  That's NOT angels.  That's an invading (besieging) army.  Clearly.

20 Disaster follows disaster; the whole land lies in ruins. In an instant my tents are destroyed, my shelter in a moment. 

Again, this isn't becoming "unformed".

23 I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone.

Again, "formless" is ludicrous.  An invading (besieging) army DESTROYED "the land".

27 This is what the LORD says: “The whole land will be ruined, though I will not destroy it completely.

This is what "tohu" means.  Wherever one finds it in the Bible.   Ruined.  Not "unformed".

1 hour ago, LiveWire said:

Don't you have any SENSE of Reality?

I think that's on your side.

1 hour ago, LiveWire said:

Act like you can READ!

Please read the verses I just quoted.  And acknowledge them.

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Maybe. 

I quoted from v.16 through v.23, to show that "the land" was DESTROYED by an invading army, which is how God punished Israel throughout it's OT history for their repeated unfaithfulness.

Just look at all the times God removed Israel as a nation.  Who wasn't killed was taken into captivity by the other nation.

Seems clear enough.  Jeremiah witnessed the "taking" of Jerusalem.  

Jer 4 ends with v.31.  Why are you bringing up a totally different passage and context?

Ch 40 of WHAT book???

Just read what Jer 4 SAYS and accept "what is written".

That means the attack came on quickly.  Of course EVERY sacking of "the land" takes a while.

There were men there, like Jeremiah, who were there, until there was no one left.

Seems you are conflating verses to make up a contradiction.

It was fruitful until the invading army destroyed all the fruit.  Conflation again.

So, please tell me "the truth of it" since what you have posted shows a contradiction between verses.  What is that truth?

It's going to take READING the book of Jeremiah to understand.  

Jere 4 has the 'SCHOLARS' telling everyone it is prophecy of what was coming to Jerusalem by the Babylonians.  

YET when we ACTUALLY READ the book of Jeremiah we find

NONE OF THE FACTS match up.  

4:? -  says THERE WAS NO MAN but when we actually read what happened we find THERE WASN'T JUST A MAN there were a few

4:? says___________________________yet when we actually read what took place after that doesn't fit either.  

I CAN DO THAT for every verse.  

Apparently, there is something 'keeping it' from even being seen, let alone acknowledged.  So I will move on.  I have planted the seed. I have watered.  My job is done.  Up to God.  

Agree or not, I now put it in GODS HANDS.  Thank you for your time.  

[LiveWire]

4 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Please provide the specific verse where you found that.  Thanks.

I have always acknowledged what you presented.  

 

This is God warning the inhabitants of the land:

Verse 16:

Tell the nations: Here they are!
Announce concerning Jerusalem:
Watchers are coming from a distant land,
They raise their voices against the towns of Judah.

 

 

Look what Daniel calls the Watchers: Chapter 4:

In the vision of my mind in bed,

I looked and saw a holy Watcher coming down from heaven.

 

This sentence is decreed by the Watchers;
This verdict is commanded by the Holy Ones
So that all creatures may know
That the Most High is sovereign over the realm of man,
And He gives it to whom He wishes
And He may set over it even the lowest of men.’

 

The holy Watcher whom the king saw descend from heaven and say,
Hew down the tree and destroy it,
But leave the stump with its roots in the ground.
In fetters of iron and bronze
In the grass of the field,
Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven,
And share the lot of the beasts of the field
Until seven seasons pass over him—