Pre-Adamic World: Fact or Fiction

[Retrobyter]

36 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Hover versus flutter? Hmm.

Shalom, Saved.One.by.Grace.

Actually, neither translation is very good. The word "spirit" is the Hebrew word "ruwach" which means a "WIND!" Since when has a wind ever "hovered" or "fluttered?"

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Saved.One.by.Grace.

Actually, neither translation is very good. The word "spirit" is the Hebrew word "ruwach" which means a "WIND!" Since when has a wind ever "hovered" or "fluttered?"

There's four meanings for that word, not necessarily "WIND".

This came up in my study of Genesis last night. Dr. Michael S. Heiser has a five plus hour series on Genesis and Creation - Old Testament Theology that I'm about 75% through. The NAS Bible Study Tools:

The NASB Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

Strong's Number: 7307 Browse Lexicon Original Word Word Origin   from (07306) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Ruwach TWOT - 2131a Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech roo'-akh Noun Feminine Definition wind, breath, mind, spirit breath wind of heaven quarter (of wind), side breath of air air, gas vain, empty thing spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour courage temper, anger impatience, patience spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse prophetic spirit spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being spirit (as seat of emotion) desire sorrow, trouble spirit as seat or organ of mental acts rarely of the will as seat especially of moral character Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power as endowing men with various gifts as energy of life as manifest in the Shekinah glory never referred to as a depersonalised force

Edited January 4, 2023 by Saved.One.by.Grace

[farouk]

13 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Enoch was never Deuterocanonical.

The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch; Hebrew: סֵפֶר חֲנוֹךְ, Sēfer Ḥănōḵ; Ge'ez: መጽሐፈ ሄኖክ, Maṣḥafa Hēnok) is an ancient Hebrew apocalyptic religious text, ascribed by tradition to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah. Enoch contains unique material on the origins of demons and Nephilim, why some angels fell from heaven, an explanation of why the Genesis flood was morally necessary, and prophetic exposition of the thousand-year reign of the Messiah. Three books are traditionally attributed to Enoch, including the distinct works 2 Enoch and 3 Enoch, although none of the three books are considered canonical scripture by the majority of Jewish or Christian bodies.

The older sections I Enoch (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) of the text are estimated to date from about 300–200 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to 100 BC. [Wikipedia]

Enoch was recognized by some Christian groups as part of their Canon of Scripture. [See
Book of Enoch for more information.]

Evangelical believers have not recognized Enoch as a canonical book for centuries.

(...though it's interesting that Anglicans and Lutheran would use Bibles including the Apocrypha until the early 19th century.)

Edited January 4, 2023 by farouk

[BeyondET]

3 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

The Enoch mentioned in Genesis may be a different Enoch. Some speculate, and I agree, that the three books of Enoch were recorded in the inter-testimonial period between the Old Testament and the birth of the Messiah. Much of the Old Testament is passed down orally, so it's impossible to point to one writer. Moses is the author of the Pentateuch but where are the original books?

I have a different understanding of the floods which closely follows @HAZARD's detailed posts.

I think there was 4, the two earlier in Genesis Enoch and the two later Hanoch. which all are from the same Hebrew name. Jude mentions the seventh so the figure in Cain's generation is biblical yet the writings could be of another author. Apparently same with a few of them in the bible.

Once I thought the verse and numbering in the bible was a addition that was not inspired by the Spirit, not so much anymore.

Cain's descendents account pretty much abruptly ends with not much of anything about them. there is some but it seems to me there's more to it.

Edited January 4, 2023 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

4 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Hover versus flutter? Hmm.

How bout both, hovering over the fluttering winds.

Psalm 104

2He wraps Himself in light as with a garment; He stretches out the heavens like a tent,

3laying the beams of His chambers in the waters above, making the clouds His chariot, walking on the wings of the wind.

[Guest]

To further confuse people:

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsCaBvQ8zaY&t=7409s"

I don't translate the Hebrew this way, because I tend to leave in the Hebrew vowels which were added later for clarity. So this validates the "days" beginning in verse Genesis 1:3. When you add the vowels, to me, the text is clearer. The Gap Theory supports the added vowels which has been accepted for a 1000+ years.

Dr. Heiser on 1 Enoch: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFjn11hiFyc"

2 Enoch and 3 Enoch: May be written by different authors. I use Dr. Ken Johnson's translation and commentary for 1-3 Enoch.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Saved.One.by.Grace

[David1701]

On 12/24/2022 at 1:12 AM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

The first bible I read was the Dake KJV Bible which was the same bible my wife was reading and inline with the teachings of our Full Gospel Church. That was the first time I heard about the Gap Theory and a Pre-Adamic World. These two positions are not dependent on one another.

When I read the bible, I had the Unger's Bible Commentary (Old Testament) the Bible Knowledge Commentary (New Testament). This was my first attempt to understand God's word. This led me to become a resource junkie. I have multiple commentaries, Interlinear bibles, dictionaries, translations, manners and customs, etc. 

So let's talk about the Pre-Adamic World before Genesis.

There is no such thing as a "pre-Adamic" world, unless you are referring to the five days of the creation week before God created Adam.

[Vine Abider]

6 minutes ago, David1701 said:

There is no such thing as a "pre-Adamic" world, unless you are referring to the five days of the creation week before God created Adam.

Can you prove that from the word?

[David1701]

Just now, Vine Abider said:

Can you prove that from the word?

Certainly.

Gen. 1:1-27 (ESV)

1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
  2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 


  3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
  4 And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness.
  5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. 


  6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
  7 And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so.
  8 And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day. 


  9 And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so.
  10 God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. 


  11 And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so.
  12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
  13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day. 


  14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years,
  15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so.
  16 And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.
  17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,
  18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
  19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day. 


  20 And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.”
  21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
  22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.”
  23 And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day. 


  24 And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so.
  25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 


  26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 


  27  So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

 

As we can see, apart from the five days of the creation week prior to creating Adam, there was no pre-Adamic world.  Each of these days had a morning and an evening and was numbered.  Every time a day has even one of the characteristics mentioned, in the Bible, it means a literal day.  Here, all three are mentioned, making the literalness of the days beyond doubt.

[Vine Abider]

5 minutes ago, David1701 said:

As we can see, apart from the five days of the creation week prior to creating Adam, there was no pre-Adamic world.  Each of these days had a morning and an evening and was numbered.  Every time a day has even one of the characteristics mentioned, in the Bible, it means a literal day.  Here, all three are mentioned, making the literalness of the days beyond doubt.

Thanks.  And to me (and others) this ignores that something happened between "In the beginning" and "the earth became waste."  That's the core of the matter, in my opinion - that is, some believe in young earth and think anything else is unscriptural, while some see there's obviously been a lot happening before Gen 1:2.

But since this is a nonessential of the faith, we can just have fun going round & round and probably never convincing each other . . .