Can We Talk About The Trinity?

[JohnD]

Point being, in response to the OP specifically about the Trinity regarding prayer... humanity has been praying to, worshiping, and sacrificing to the preincarnate Jesus (Yahweh) since the beginning.

The Father (incidentally who was not a Father until the incarnation of Jesus... notice in Hebrews 1:5 "he SHALL BE a son to me, I WILL BE a father to him..." ) is mentioned rarely in the Old Testament. He's there (obviously) see 1 John 1:1-2. But aside from passages like Psalm 2 (which infers the Father when it speaks of the Son) and Isaiah 53:10...

Isaiah 53:10 (LEB)
10 Yet Yahweh was pleased to crush him; he made him sick. If he places his life a guilt offering, he will see offspring. He will prolong days, and the will of Yahweh will succeed in his hand.

The pleasure is not in the crushing but in the result of the crushing (the sin debt was satisfied in other words). And note: the Father's name is also Yahweh. As is the Holy Spirit. Think of it as a surname.

The name comes from:

Exodus 3:13–15 (LEB)
13 But Moses said to God, “Look, if I go to the Israelites and I say to them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’ then what shall I say to them?”
14 And God said to Moses, “I am that I am.” And he said, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘I am sent me to you.’ ”
15 And God said again to Moses, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my remembrance from generation to generation.’

Literally: ehyeh asher ehyeh (I EXIST BECAUSE I EXIST) and it is not restricted to a particular tense:

I ALWAYS EXISTED BECAUSE I ALWAYS EXISTED

I WILL ALWAYS EXIST BECAUSE I WILL ALWAYS EXIST

I WAS, I AM I AM TO COME BECAUSE I WAS I AM I AM TO COME

It speaks to the eternality of God

∞ (the symbol for infinity... existence without beginning or end)

which naturally applies to all three Persons in the Godhead.

[JohnD]

There is still only one God.

Like a human being is body soul spirit (tripartite having three different parts to make the whole)

But God is three identical parts a triunity (trinity) of three equal Persons who comprises the one God.

[JohnD]

I personally talk* with the Holy Spirit, the Lord Jesus, and the Heavenly Father with love and reverence and worship and awe.

Equally.

* Prayer is talking to God.

Romans 8:15 clued me in on the fact that God wants to talk with us in prayer... earnestly, genuinely unobscured with religious fanaticism... 

Think about it, with your own father would you say "Oh gracious father, for whom I owe my very existence, head of the house, winner of the bread, protector, disciplinarian, mightest I borrow thine car keys?"

Such language (at least for me) comes across as stand off-ish, like I am putting GOd on a pedestal above and away from my heart, And God wants to be intimate with our hearts if we let him be.

All three are God. In my book that means all three are directly accessible in prayer.  

[OneLight]

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@OneLight

Bellow I copy and paste something from your quoted post above,

One Light said: I see no problem with praying to the Father or to God.  To me, praying to God reaches the Father".

I am quite sure that there is Justification to make a statement like that and run to it's defense.  But this did not happen before some indoctrination but right after and it seems to be in line with some doctrine...and the doctrine or the foundation of that doctrine it may very well be truth and as a matter of fact it is. 

But see when as we say someone puts the cart before the horse...

Someone may reason that Jesus is God...Wow and Wow this it can't be denied. 

The Man Jesus is God...is God Almighty...

This it can be very confusing even to the people who have taken the mission upon them selves to hold symbolically the knife on the throat of people and demand the confession from them "confess that Jesus is God"..

@OneLight Read carefully your statement bellow: taken from your quoted post above.

"I see no problem with praying to the Father or to God.  To me, praying to God reaches the Father". 

It was a way of saying there is no difference as the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all God, in perfect unity with each other.  One does not know something the others don't know.  If I pray to God, then they all know,  When I pray to the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit know what I prayed about.  There is no indoctrination to it, it's scriptural.  1 John 5:6-8

 

[OneLight]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

Maybe nothing at all, but it is a difference from when the statement was made. No matter "who" we address we are in effect addressing all three right? I am trying to see the most proper way to communicate and see God as three, yet one.

Technically as I understand it, Yeshua is the more accurate term for Jesus. Most here in the west use the name Jesus. This is maybe yet another consideration. Which name fits best? I have also caught myself saying "Lord" in prayer, which I think hearkens back to old english. Seldom do I hear anyone say "God" when addressing the Godhead in prayer. Jesus and Lord seem somehow more personal than God to me and I suspect to others as well.

The west uses Jesus as it is the English translation Iēsous, the Ancient Greek form of the Hebrew and Aramaic name Yeshua or Y'shua.  I'm sure Jesus will know you are praying to Him if you use Jesus.  To be the most accurate, one would need to know Hebrew, Aramaic and Ancient Greek.  If that is your goal, I surely don't want to discourage you!  I have a hard enough time with English - never was able to take any foreign language in school.

3 hours ago, Starise said:

No I am asking how you all communicate in prayer to God and why? More specifically WHO do you address prayer to? I am asking how you all view the trinity which would affect how you pray and direct communication to God. I am also asking if there is any indication in God's eyes for how HE prefers we address Him, because THAT is the most important.

I don't follow a formal format in prayer.  I speak from the heart as I reach out to Him, be it the Father, or Jesus.  Your last question is on my list of questions I have to ask God in my next life.  I have not found any specific instructions outside of the example Jesus gave us.

3 hours ago, Starise said:

Lastly, to make sense of worshipping a God that contains three different parts, how would you describe the way we worship God as a single being when there are three to someone who is a monotheist?

I may get a lot of feedback on this, but I have come to believe that God is a title for the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.  God is one, as they all agree and are in perfect unity, yet they are three different Entities.  One does not disagree with the other two in any way whatsoever.

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, OneLight said:

It was a way of saying there is no difference as the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all God, in perfect unity with each other.  One does not know something the others don't know.  If I pray to God, then they all know,  When I pray to the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit know what I prayed about.  There is no indoctrination to it, it's scriptural.  1 John 5:6-8

 

I don't want to say something and be misunderstood...

But the OP is looking for the specifics. Jesus is the one who died for us...the only one who could, who was possible because he was a man...our next of kin...of course with the Life..

I know that I am not saying something knew to you...

When we pray to the Heavenly Father and we say it is the same this is not what is supposed to be..but it is ok if you acknowledge him and you are thanking him for Jesus....but if you are praying to the Heavenly Father and asking him to do something for you...He won't do it...because he has given us Jesus for everything we need. Your prayer will be taken up by Jesus because they are not there to Judge and your prayers are acknowledge because Jesus and the Holy Spirit already know what you need...and they are compassionate...and if they love us they are  steps ahead of our prayers...and our needs. 

We must exalt the name of Jesus when we pray...

In the name of Jesus loose him....Paul to the evil spirits...in the name of Jesus walk, Peter to the paralytic man at the gate to the Temple...every knee shall bow down to Jesus and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. 

The Heavenly Father has given all the Judgment to his Son to Jesus Christ...

Which is telling us that he only Judge Jesus because he was subjected to his obedience....that's why the scripture says that he raised Jesus from the dead...Jesus passed all the tests that were put infront of him and he was found to have complete his mission and his mission was not completed the time he died but just before he was raised from the dead...he had a lot to do from the time of his death till the time of his resurrection. He emerged victorious at his resurrection and had the goods to prove it.  HE had the Keys of Death and Hades and the Key of David and he had Abraham and his chosen children with him and the scriptures say that he divided the spoils with the strong...he went down there alone but he was raised up together with a lot of people who believed in his name...

As the scripture said he died alone and who could tell his generations...he was raised up with everyone who believed in his name.  Peter can testify to that because Jesus let him see them on the day when he show the vision that came down from Heaven on his mission to Cornelius..  Jesus told him they are in Heaven with him.  

Pleasure to interact with you.  

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, Starise said:

Very interesting the way you approach prayer.

I am guessing you might be Messianic? I just wanted to clarify for the reader, and please correct me if I'm wrong, when you say the Gentile has no recourse and the Israelite must go via priest at every stage, you are referring to all believers as Israelites and the Gentiles as the unsaved.

 

My approach to prayer is actually based on John 4:24. I understand prayer as admitting my need of God and my actual supplication. When our Lord Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light .... in John 14, His context was the "Father's House". Christianity at large think that that is heaven. I don't. The Father's House is severally; The Tabernacle, Solomon's Temple, Zerubbabel's Temple, The Body of Christ and the Church. The Father's House is where He dwells in order to have fellowship with men (Ex.25:22).

This House is not left to men to devise. Both Moses and David must follow a "pattern". In John the House in Jerusalem is about to be forsaken (Matt.23:38) and a New and Upgraded House introduced - the Body of Christ. And the smallest unit, or "abode" (not "mansion") is the individual Christian. Just as the Tabernacle and Temple that are now laid aside, the New Tabernacle - man - is constructed in three parts. Man has a body - the Outer Court, man has a soul - the Holy Place, and man has a spirit - the Holy of Holies. According to John 4:24, that is where God dwells and where God is met.

Israel, had (past tense) God's House. But to get to God he must sacrifice. He is met at the gate of the Tabernacle by a priest of Levi to inspect his offering. And so his progress from the gate of the Tabernacle to the Holy Place is continuously dependent on a Levite Priest. The Golden Calf has forever defiled the Jew and instead of choosing God in repentance, he must stand aside and be led by the Levite. His journey to the Holy of Holies is via the High Priest, but he himself is accounted defiled. Aaron and his offspring are the only ones allowed by God, once a year, to representatively enter the Holy of Holies. Since the Jew has refused Christ, his way to the Mercy Seat is still barred under pain of death.

The Gentile has neither the Tabernacle nor the approved offerings. He has no access to a holy God. The fiery sword is still in place. The Canaanite woman of Matthew 15 cries loudly and fervently for the "Healer" - "the Son of David". Her cry is genuine. Her need is great. But our Lord does not answer. When she addresses Him as God - not Son of David, He calls her a "dog" (the unclean animal). But she counters by placing herself under the Jewish table. Then she may have "crumbs". But what is the future of such an one? The Jews are about to murder the "Bread" and have their "Table" removed. The Gentile has no way to reach God - EXCEPT .... the new priests - intercede for him. The harvest is truly great - but who is authorized to reap? The Christian. In Solomon's time there are 153,000 Gentiles under the Israelite roof. But Christians must harvest them (Jn.21:11)

I am not Messianic. The Messiah is the one promised to Israel. I am a Gentile who profited from Israel's refusal of Jesus. Through Jesus I am a New Creature with no heritage or ethnicity. I understand that even the PLACE of worship is new - the human spirit - the inner sanctum of God's "abodes".

 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (Jn.4:22–24)

According to the context Gerizim, where the Samaritans worship, is a PLACE. Moriah, where Israel worship, is a PLACE. The correct PLACE since our Lord Jesus uttered John 4:24, is the human spirit. Romans Chapter 8:4-17 confirms this.

However, don't get me wrong. You don't have to know this to get an answer to prayer. A simple request to the Father, in the name of Jesus, will get through to Him. But his answer ??? I cannot tell.

[Starise]

12 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

But the correct way is to pray to our guardian and to our Lord to the one we have partake of his blood and of his Spirit...our first instance Father we are his offspring.  We are the children of the Heavenly Father because we are the children of Jesus Christ we are coming to the Father through the blood and the Spirit of Jesus Christ his Son. 

This is what I was looking for, what the correct way to pray is, and tend to feel that since it is Yeshua we worship as a result of His sacrifice for us, then HE is our conduit.

Having said that, probably simialr to @Tristen and others, I don't conciously think about who I am referring to in prayer and worship because to me it's all God. Once we are true believers, I believe God hears our voice because we now have a direct HEART connection to Him, and the conversations become much more casual, like close friends. When we know someone on a comfortable casual basis neither party really is as concerned about formal titles, so I won't say it doesn't matter at all, but I think God gives some leeway to the believer.

No we don't come at God like " Hey bro". I think that shows a lack of respect for who He is. I consider it a great honor to address God and I want Him to know I respect Him, yet we are told to come boldly to the throne.

Some here have mentioned prayer being more like a conversation. This has been my experience. At some point I talk to God quite often throughout the day with me using His nickname? "Lord" Lord I need help with this or Lord can you give me wisdom with that? I see Lord as a nickname because it isn't His real name.

I might say Jesus or Lord Jesus as replacements to that.

 

 

[other one]

19 minutes ago, Starise said:

This is what I was looking for, what the correct way to pray is, and tend to feel that since it is Yeshua we worship as a result of His sacrifice for us, then HE is our conduit.

don't forget that he calls us his brother and sisters and probably as important his friend.   While we do consider him as our Lord and savior, we should also treat him as a close personal friend.

[Dennis1209]

15 hours ago, Starise said:

The trinity is a great mystery to me as well, but if we are going to minister to a monotheist we will need to learn how to best explain how we worship God as three, yet one, and how Yahweh the great I AM is ok with us worshipping Jesus instead of Him.

There, now I've really opened a can of worms

Let's use them, I gots me a couple of fishen poles, LOL. 

This is a difficult topic to articulate for me. I thought @Tristen had an interesting response. Our God is three Persons in One; I cannot see a necessity to pray to a single God Head for different matters. All Three God Heads work in unison and are coequal.

It appears their work is sometimes centralized to specific tasks (I.e., creation, Soteriology, Redemption, regeneration-indwelling, etc.) Of course, I may be wrong.

We are given a pattern for prayer:

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. [emphasis mine]

After this manner, we direct our prayers to the Father. As I mentioned earlier, we now have an advocate and mediator at the right hand of the Father, interceding for us. Through Jesus and His sacrifice, we can boldly go before God’s throne thru Him. That was not the case in OT times.

Regardless of whether we have the correct doctrine on prayer. The intent and thoughts of our hearts and actions matter most, IMO.

I see it as we pray through our intermediary to the Father and God Head. As mentioned, in OT times, the prophets were the intermediaries between men and the Father. Since the cross, the intermediary we go thru is Jesus to the Father.

What we have been taught and learned is difficult to change or alter. Again, which one trumps, protocol or the intents of our hearts?