First Resurrection vs 2nd Resurrection - SUPER SIMPLE

[AdHoc]

18 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Yes, but THE SEED is completely SEPARATED from the plant that produced it.  It grows up looking the much like the plant, but is a DIFFERENT PLANT, 

NOT THE OLD PLANT 're furbished'

 

HIS body DID NOT SEE CORRUPTION though, did it?  HE was the ONLY begotten Son of GOD.  We are NOT the same, no matter how much the pre trib needs it.  

See above on 'seed'

 

 

AGAIN we sow NOT THE BODY THAT SHALL BE.  

There is a body natural 


AND


There is a body spiritual.

a BODY coming from the corruption DOESN'T INHEIRT INCORRUPTION.  No matter how much the pre trib demands it to be so. 

 

And so does the spiritual body that houses it in the UNSEEN REALM. 

 4152. pneumatikos ►
Strong's Concordance
pneumatikos: spiritual
Original Word: πνευματικός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pneumatikos
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo-mat-ik-os')
Definition: spiritual
Usage: spiritual.
HELPS Word-studies
4152 pneumatikós (an adjective, derived from 4151 /pneúma, "spirit") – spiritual; relating to the realm of spirit, i.e. the invisible sphere in which the Holy Spirit imparts faith, reveals Christ, etc.

 

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

how many different ways does it need to be said?   But there is that DEMAND from the pre trib doctrine isn't there?  Boy if it doesn't run in all places of the words of God to make what is simple and straight forward confusing and brought into question.


 

BUT NOT ACCORDING TO WHAT IS WRITTEN  

9Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

10For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


 

Yes, He did.  SO we (THE GIFT OF SALVATION SOULS) wouldn't have to.  HE did the work on the cross and became THE LAMB SLAIN so that we would HAVE NO SIN.  

no sin, no WAGES.  

The ransom was PAID.  You don't keep the kid once the ransom has been paid.  You pay the ransom to get the kid back.  NOT 2000 years later.  28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.  NOT THE DEAD THOUGH

AGAIN if while you live, THAT WOULD BE NOW, you come to faith, YOU WILL NEVER DIE.  

I understand there is a WANT for that to mean DIE, and go be amongst the dead, and resurrected out from the dead some 2000 years later

but that isn't NEVER DIE AND NEVER WILL BE.  




GET ME FROM in heaven, having the natural body sown and the spiritual body raised up, 

TO DEAD IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH with a dead carcass, TO being raised up as a glorified body, out from the dead

using ONLY SCRIPTURE.  

And I will again show you where WE ARE RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY.  
 

I'll let the reader decide if you upheld one of your previous arguments against my mine. Your answers above were a smoke screen and had nothing to do with what you said in the posting I answered. Who said anything about an old plant and a separate seed. Scripture says that the corrupt body is the seed. You say it is not even planted because a dead man gets a heavenly and spirit body. Oops! According to you he is not even dead!

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You have contradicted scripture that says Jesus did NOT GO UP but "descended FIRST"

Where did I contradict that?  IT HASN'T EVENN been a part of the conversation?  I am well aware He told Mary to not touch because He had to ascend to the Father.  

I don't even know where that came from cause it is out of LEFT FIELD TO ME.  

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You have contradicted scripture that says Jesus did NOT GO UP but "descended FIRST" (Eph.4:9) to the "heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40). You have contradicted scripture that say that Jesus told Mary that He had "not yet ascended to His Father" but she could tell His  disciples that He was "RISEN".

You have to either supply the scriptures or admit that you have been misinformed. I do not expect you to change your mind over night, but theses arguments of mine stand since last time we discussed this.

again, these things HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN BROUGHT UP.  So to make such statement is not coming across in good faith.  

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

In 1st Thessalonians 4 why are dead raised when they are already in the heavens?

I skipped all the part before as I answered it since then so won't be addressing it again, we will have to disagree.  

WHY are the DEAD raised up?  Because they never followed Him to where He was, they had to WAIT in hell until He returned.  AND

because not all the DEAD are DEAD because they are evil souls. 

SOME of the dead are DEAD because THEY NEVER HEARD GODS TRUTH. 

How JUST would God be if 'circumstances' beyond your control made it so YOU NEVER RECEIVED HIS TRUTH?  

Can anyone CHOOSE, if they don't know there is even a choice?  

WHY does the word of God have to go out TO ALL THE WORLD before the end can come?  

BACK AGAIN TO WHAT is GODS WILL?

That ALL come to repentance.  

SO both THE JUST AND THE UNJUST DEAD and in unsaved, never came to faith, never heard the word, died in sin and trespass etc.

must be raised up TO SEE IF THEY CAN GET THEIR NAMES IN THE BOOK OF LIFE.  

What do you think the Lords Day is for?  The wrath is poured out in a day but the REST OF THE 1000 years are for BRINGING the nations to truth.  Hence why ALL of the saved will be priests and will rule over all of the UNSAVED aka DEAD.


THAT is why the dead who rise up when Christ returns don't RECEIVE their immortality.  They have to WORK for it.  No coming in faith for them.  


And IF THE DEAD DON'T RISE UP and

THE TIME had to be shortened or else NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED aka alive and remaining NOT HAVING TAKEN THE MARK OF THE BEAST

and those who TOOK the mark find their flesh bodies being eaten by birds or in the wine press or dead by the sword etc.

and the alive and remaining are changed THEN WHO IS THERE TO RULE WITH A ROD OF IRON OVER?  WHO ARE THE NATIONS THAT WILL COME TO WORSHIP?

We aren't going TO HELL to preach.  THEY have got to RISE UP for the 1000 years.  

Who STANDS in JUDGMENT at the END of the 1000 years TO SEE IF THEIR NAMES ARE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE? 

THE DEAD.  

EVERYONE WHO Followed Him to heaven HAVE ALREADY been judged by Him.  If you have followed Him to heaven, then YOU are already SAVED already with Him forever.  
You don't stand at the end to find out IF YOU ARE.  Only the dead.  


AND the reason why ONLY SOME OF THE DEAD RESURRECT WHEN CHRIST RETURNS.  
Because there are those WHO CHOSE their fate.  THOSE DEAD don't rise up until AFTER those risen for the 1000 years are judged.  THAT is when hell death and the sea give up the dead in them. 

 

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Concerning Martha, you did not comment on the context. Do I take it that you agree. If you do not agree then please comment on these from John 6.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Why haven't you shown WHAT LAST DAY IS BEING SPOKEN OF?  ARE you assuming it is the last day of this age when Christ returns?  OR DO YOU HAVE PROOF?  


I can tell you there was A LAST DAY of the Old Covenant,  in which the graves were opened and the dead rose up and followed Christ to heaven.  aka led the captivity...

I don't BELIEVE a last day IS EVER SPOKEN OF AGAIN for the saved to be resurrected AS A GROUP.  

DO YOU HAVE SCRIPTURE? 



BECAUSE if you notice THEY ALL FIT WITH THE PROMISE THAT WE NEVER DIE. 

Read them as if it was the 'last day' of our life in this BODY

and

our resurrection COMING because OF THE dead body

('it's becoming dead because, as in adam all die, AND EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER) 

AND NOT RESURRECTED

OUT FROM the dead in HELL when Christ returns.

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

O.K. So in your first answer in this thread there are NONE that sleep for we are delivered from death. Now we have you asserting that all men sleep and must be raised. You had no option because the Word of God says so. But note - you entered another realm of the argument - "ALL MEN". Paul is addressing "the dead". It is not only "the dead IN Christ" but all men.

As in ADAM our FLESH body dies, but as in Christ WE don't go to be amongst the dead.  We CONTINUE on LIVING just in another body in another realm BY KNOWING THE WAY, BY KNOWING THE LIFE, BY KNOWING THE RESURRECTION

AND SO WE FOLLOW HIM.  

Those who don't know the way GO TO HELL and stay IN HELL.  And don't leave HELL until THE DEAD ARE RAISED UP FROM HELL

WHEN CHRIST RETURNS with those FOLLOWED HIM.  And since they were RAISED IN GLORY AND RAISED IN THEIR SPIRITUAL BODIES aren't going back for ANYTHING FROM THIS CORRUPTED WORLD.  THEY ARE HEAVENLY AND NEED NOTHING OF THE EARTH.  

The rest of the dead are raised when hell death and sea give up the dead. 

THAT TAKES CARE OF ALL MEN. 

[DeighAnn]

40 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I'll let the reader decide if you upheld one of your previous arguments against my mine. Your answers above were a smoke screen and had nothing to do with what you said in the posting I answered. Who said anything about an old plant and a separate seed. Scripture says that the corrupt body is the seed. You say it is not even planted because a dead man gets a heavenly and spirit body. Oops! According to you he is not even dead!

I said THE BODY SOWN PRODUCES THE SEED AND GOD GIVES A BODY TO THE SEED.  AND I dONT say IT

SCRIPTURE does.  

knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest NOT that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

 

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him,



and to every seed his own body.

[JohnD]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It is a pity that the Rabbi did not quote the authority for declaring exceptions. There are exceptions in scripture but they are always explained - like the house of Cornelius receiving the Immersion into the Holy Spirit before water Immersion. God's Word is not easily set aside.

Indeed it is not!

For example, on the biblical authority of God's Word and the testimony of Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist):

Matthew 3:11 (KJV)
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Here the Bible testifies water baptism is in contrast with the Holy Spirit Baptism of Christ (salvation) and the condemnation of fire for unbelief in Christ (John 3:18). 

This is the one baptism that matters:

Ephesians 4:5 (KJV)
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Be careful AdHoc about throwing stones of pity when you apparently live in a glass house.

 

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

JUST BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T GET IT immediately DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT WE ARE TOLD it wasn't DEATH.  

Also, why would I mention it after showing WHAT HE SAID WAS HAPPENING?  Do you think it changed in those couple minutes? 

OK, you be right, he wasn't really DEAD up until that second

but when He said he was dead and before He called him out he was.  I stand corrected.  Apologies.

Does that CHANGE anything?  NO, it doesn't.  QUIT looking for what is wrong with ME and the way I say things and try and concentrate on GODS TRUTH BECAUSE THAT IS ALL WE ARE DOING HERE.  That is ALL that matters.  

That is why I keep asking for SCRIPTURE.  

 

 

Yes, I have been TOLD MANY THINGS MANY TIMES and here we are with MANY OF THEM LIES.  So you will excuse me if I LET precept on precept and the Spirit of truth lead and guide me OVER the MAN MADE rules of grammar and definitions.  

AGAIN, He WAS the Son of GOD sent to do things WE WILL NEVER DO.  Maybe we need to be crucified and descend into hell for a few days and lead the captives out of there when we ascend....AND again, his body DIDN'T SEE CORRUPTION.  He is SPIRITUAL AND NATURAL .  We are one then the other.  

 

WOW.  

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

NOW YOU GIVE ME SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THAT ISN'T THE ORDER IN WHICH IT HAPPENS

Since that is NOT HOW YOU READ IT,

Tell me PLEASE, what does that say?  

 

 

That is exactly what I needed to hear. "Lies" and "man made grammar". Now we know what your appreciation of the men who translated the Bible is. Your honesty is refreshing though, and it will save much writing. Our basis for a study on resurrection is called into question. I am happy to stop here with no hard feelings. May the Lord shine on you and prosper you.

Take care.

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, JohnD said:

Indeed it is not!

For example, on the biblical authority of God's Word and the testimony of Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist):

Matthew 3:11 (KJV)
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Here the Bible testifies water baptism is in contrast with the Holy Spirit Baptism of Christ (salvation) and the condemnation of fire for unbelief in Christ (John 3:18). 

This is the one baptism that matters:

Ephesians 4:5 (KJV)
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Be careful AdHoc about throwing stones of pity when you apparently live in a glass house.

 

I hear you brother. But I need help in two matters.

1. I don't know what "throwing stones of pity" means

2. In Acts 2:38-41 how many baptism's are there? And in your scripture (Matthew 3:11) how many are there? I read one by water (for the remission), one by Christ into the Holy Spirit and one by fire for purging His threshing floor. That makes THREE. But you have rightly shown ONE in the inspired record of Ephesians 4:5. Which one and why the discrepancy? Here are the Texts;

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Mt 3:11–12).