Jesus miracles

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

9 hours ago, Jaydub said:

I am curious as to why you think this, In Joel and acts we are told prophesy will still happen, so I am curious as to why you feel there are no prophets

As for apostles I have no opinion and would just like to know why you feel this way, thanks

 

Joel 2

“And afterward,
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your old men will dream dreams,
    your young men will see visions.
²⁹ Even on my servants, both men and women,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
³⁰ I will show wonders in the heavens
    and on the earth,
    blood and fire and billows of smoke.
³¹ The sun will be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood
    before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

There are no prophets because the office of Prophet ceased to exist after Jesus. Prophets spoke for God and told people the will of God. When Jesus came,  we all received the Holy Spirit. God now speaks to us directly without going through a 3rd party.  There is NO reason for prophets to exist today. 

As for Apostles, there are 15 men in the New Testament called Apostles. However there is no indication that the office was ever passed on after the Apostles died. In fact, the Apostles were chosen by Jesus himself to continue his work and build his Church. Now all believers do that work, so the office of Apostle would be pointless today.  

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

7 hours ago, OneLight said:

I don't believe this is an open and shut case like you present it.  I do believe that God cannot find anyone who's heart is right for these positions today, not that the offices are closed.  God may appoint someone to these positions in the future.  Many of those who claim to hold these offices today are self appointed.

Here is my humble opinion. 

There are no prophets because the office of Prophet ceased to exist after Jesus. Prophets spoke for God and told people the will of God. When Jesus came,  we all received the Holy Spirit. God now speaks to us directly without going through a 3rd party.  There is NO reason for prophets to exist today. 

As for Apostles, there are 15 men in the New Testament called Apostles. However there is no indication that the office was ever passed on after the Apostles died. In fact, the Apostles were chosen by Jesus himself to continue his work and build his Church. Now all believers do that work, so the office of Apostle would be pointless today.  

 

And yes,  there are people who supposedly claim the title of Prophet or Apostle, but these are DEFINITELY self appointed and not from God. 

[OneLight]

21 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Here is my humble opinion. 

There are no prophets because the office of Prophet ceased to exist after Jesus. Prophets spoke for God and told people the will of God. When Jesus came,  we all received the Holy Spirit. God now speaks to us directly without going through a 3rd party.  There is NO reason for prophets to exist today. 

I know you stated that the above is just your opinion, but opinions speaks from our beliefs and theologies.  Allow me my reply.

Well, since Jesus is still alive, than it's still open.  If you mean after Jesus died on the cross, then you must think that Paul was a lier when he penned 1 Corinthians 12 about how the Holy Spirit works.  Let's read it ...

1 Corinthians 12:27-28

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.  And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

We surely can't look at this in a historical manner because before Jesus, there is no mention of Apostles.  We have to view this as current to this age, the church age.  Since Jesus has not returned, this is still how the church should operate.

21 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

As for Apostles, there are 15 men in the New Testament called Apostles. However there is no indication that the office was ever passed on after the Apostles died. In fact, the Apostles were chosen by Jesus himself to continue his work and build his Church. Now all believers do that work, so the office of Apostle would be pointless today.  

 

And yes,  there are people who supposedly claim the title of Prophet or Apostle, but these are DEFINITELY self appointed and not from God. 

Again ... 1 Corinthians 12:27-28

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.  And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

Apostle is still an office.  Did anyone see Jesus confront Saul on the road to Damascus?  All scripture tells us is "And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one."  Who are we to say Jesus hasn't appeared to anyone else since that day, or never will before His return?

Too many times I have seen where people disregard parts of scripture by adding their opinion into areas of scripture to support their theology instead of allowing scripture to form their theology.  Unless there is scriptural proof that the Holy Spirit is no longer working as scripture indicated He works, saying He doesn't is, at best, a misunderstanding of what they read or following incorrect teachings from another.  I have yet to read that 1 Corinthians 12 is history and no longer viable for the body of Christ.

As for your last statement, I have not met every single person who claims to be a Prophet or an Apostle, so I can't agree or disagree with you.  All I was pointing to is those whom I have seen on TV or Video, I highly doubt their office only because of their fruit, not because the office is closed. 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

10 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I know you stated that the above is just your opinion, but opinions speaks from our beliefs and theologies.  Allow me my reply.

Well, since Jesus is still alive, than it's still open.  If you mean after Jesus died on the cross, then you must think that Paul was a lier when he penned 1 Corinthians 12 about how the Holy Spirit works.  Let's read it ...

1 Corinthians 12:27-28

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.  And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

We surely can't look at this in a historical manner because before Jesus, there is no mention of Apostles.  We have to view this as current to this age, the church age.  Since Jesus has not returned, this is still how the church should operate.

Again ... 1 Corinthians 12:27-28

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.  And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

Apostle is still an office.  Did anyone see Jesus confront Saul on the road to Damascus?  All scripture tells us is "And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one."  Who are we to say Jesus hasn't appeared to anyone else since that day, or never will before His return?

Too many times I have seen where people disregard parts of scripture by adding their opinion into areas of scripture to support their theology instead of allowing scripture to form their theology.  Unless there is scriptural proof that the Holy Spirit is no longer working as scripture indicated He works, saying He doesn't is, at best, a misunderstanding of what they read or following incorrect teachings from another.  I have yet to read that 1 Corinthians 12 is history and no longer viable for the body of Christ.

As for your last statement, I have not met every single person who claims to be a Prophet or an Apostle, so I can't agree or disagree with you.  All I was pointing to is those whom I have seen on TV or Video, I highly doubt their office only because of their fruit, not because the office is closed. 

Well of course I meant that while Jesus was walking the Earth, there is no reason for either of those offices. No I don't think Paul was lying,  but he was unique. He had a major role to play in scripture and the church, and was chosen out of all humanity to do what he did.  Unless I'm mistaken, No one after Paul claimed to be of those offices until recent times. Since the whole New Testament took less than a century to write,  we can't base anything on history in scripture.  There was only 1 prophet in the New Testament and NO other Apostles after Paul. Neither of those offices continued historically.  They vanished.  As far as 1 Corinthians 12, yes,  that is a list of many offices and gifts God has given the Church. I realize that Prophets are listed but there is no evidence that true prophets ever existed after the age of Apostles. Similarly there is no evidence that Apostles existed after the final one John died.  

 

I'm sure I'm not being as clear as I want to be,  but I hope you can at least understand the point I'm trying to make.  If the Corinthians passage meant there would still be Prophets and Apostles,  then where were they and why is history silent about them?

[OneLight]

13 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Well of course I meant that while Jesus was walking the Earth, there is no reason for either of those offices. 

You do realize that is was not until after Jesus ascended that the Holy Spirit came.  Everything we read in the bible from Acts to Revelation came after Jesus ministry, including 1 Corinthians 12.  Help me understand you if you would.  Are you saying that nothing about 1 Corinthians 12 is for the church?  Why would God put this in scripture if it was not meant for the church?

13 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

No I don't think Paul was lying,  but he was unique. He had a major role to play in scripture and the church, and was chosen out of all humanity to do what he did.  Unless I'm mistaken, No one after Paul claimed to be of those offices until recent times. Since the whole New Testament took less than a century to write,  we can't base anything on history in scripture.  There was only 1 prophet in the New Testament and NO other Apostles after Paul. Neither of those offices continued historically.  They vanished.  As far as 1 Corinthians 12, yes,  that is a list of many offices and gifts God has given the Church. I realize that Prophets are listed but there is no evidence that true prophets ever existed after the age of Apostles. Similarly there is no evidence that Apostles existed after the final one John died.  

Interesting.  You say yes, then no, then yes, then no ... 

If Paul was not lying, then scripture is true and 1 Corinthians 12 still stands.  You say we find nothing after John died, well, that's because God said all He wanted to say through them to us.  Again, unless you can show me in scripture that God has rescinded His gifts and offices, they have to still be in operational status, even if they are not filled. 

13 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I'm sure I'm not being as clear as I want to be,  but I hope you can at least understand the point I'm trying to make.  If the Corinthians passage meant there would still be Prophets and Apostles,  then where were they and why is history silent about them?

I understand it, but I certainly don't agree with it.  I believe the gifts and offices are still for today.  I also believe that it is us who lack enough faith in God to be used by Him in certain ways.  This is why we don't see the miracles and healings today as they were in the times of the apostles.  Not because God doesn't want them done, He just doesn't see anyone who is close enough to Him for such gifts.  Nowhere is scripture does it say the gifts or office ceased.  Not until Jesus returns, then there will be no need for any gifts or offices.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

7 hours ago, OneLight said:

You do realize that is was not until after Jesus ascended that the Holy Spirit came.  Everything we read in the bible from Acts to Revelation came after Jesus ministry, including 1 Corinthians 12.  Help me understand you if you would.  Are you saying that nothing about 1 Corinthians 12 is for the church?  Why would God put this in scripture if it was not meant for the church?

Interesting.  You say yes, then no, then yes, then no ... 

If Paul was not lying, then scripture is true and 1 Corinthians 12 still stands.  You say we find nothing after John died, well, that's because God said all He wanted to say through them to us.  Again, unless you can show me in scripture that God has rescinded His gifts and offices, they have to still be in operational status, even if they are not filled. 

I understand it, but I certainly don't agree with it.  I believe the gifts and offices are still for today.  I also believe that it is us who lack enough faith in God to be used by Him in certain ways.  This is why we don't see the miracles and healings today as they were in the times of the apostles.  Not because God doesn't want them done, He just doesn't see anyone who is close enough to Him for such gifts.  Nowhere is scripture does it say the gifts or office ceased.  Not until Jesus returns, then there will be no need for any gifts or offices.

I think maybe I'm being misunderstood a little, so let me try to clarify. I believe the offices of Prophet and Apostle no longer exist because there is NO REASON for them to exist. Prophets and Apostles enjoyed special privileges and a relationship with God that wasn't available to regular people. After Jesus, those privileges are now available to everyone, so no one has that special status anymore. 

 

I am not using scripture for my view. I'm using history. Why would God continue offices that are now unnecessary and obsolete. 

 

I DO believe God still acts in the lives of believers and in the world just as he has before,  but he doesn't trumpet it around as he did with Jesus. Now he performs miracles and speaks to people in private.

 

This may not have cleared anything up,  but I tried. If we disagree, that's OK.  Let's disagree respectfully and still love each other in the family of God.

[TheBlade]

"Could it be either God is working different now or we don't have the gift of miracles and healing like they did."

What we see and feel is not faith. We walk by faith. Faith in what God said He will do. John 3:16 Luke 11:13. If He GOD said that we do not go by how we feel or see. So for me why would I listen to some man/woman telling me what God does or does not do any more when its only based on doubt not faith. We still no offense but walk as children still wanting milk. Ever notice its not us that as the word says if we doubt were like a ship tossed around and let not that man think he will get anything from God. So its not us were not doubting no its that the holy Spirit is not doing that any more. Our proof is well we don't see it happening. 

Yet it does happen all over the world every day. So many of those huge ministries some don't like ask them to show you how many "healings" and great miracles people report in with. Then all those that back up that healing by what he Doctor says. Just talk to Doctors. There are so many things they see ever day they can not explain. A woman with x-ray's showing her leg 2" shorter then the other. See they had to take out bone. Yeah just does not at the age of about 20+ grow back.  Yet she goes to see this haha this will go over good.. this faith preachers we all  know the name. Prayers for her right there her leg grew back and her pants that mom helped make is not 2" to short. So many there shocked.. telling her " I SAW YOUR LEG GROW BACK".

A doctor in this city the best in his field was operating on this man for the 4 times. All those with him that day saw him get mad toss the scalpel at the wall cursing. Well he was the only one that operated on the man. Before this operation he had to get x-rays the man doing those was saying.. wait this is not right. Haha the man getting the x-rays is starting to get scared..what whats not right? So the guy tells him these x-rays are not like the others. Anyway seems things that Doctor had to cut out that will never grow back.. grew back. This is not talking about the 5000 that all saw a miracle.  Nor the woman I saw when I was like 19 she was blind.. I didn't know her was asking a friend who is that? See she was crying and screaming and so happy. He said about 1/2 the people there (500) came with her since she WAS blind. Seems that name faith in that name gave her new eyes. 

If we just had faith. If we seek truth..  Christ is all we will find. If read His word and truly never want to miss it or get it wrong. If that is our heart He will always tell you if you got something wrong or not. We just don't take the time to ask and just like healing.. you don't put GOD on some time clock.  No matter what it is. IF GOD said it you don't have to ASK for it. Just healing.. your not healing any one. Your never doing it. But it shall follow those that believe. Sorry if they are not following you.. its not GOD thats the problem He can't lie its us. This where ..its not us no no its GOD.. those things don't happen anymore. For you? No they will not happen. He cn not go against your will.   

[OneLight]

10 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I think maybe I'm being misunderstood a little, so let me try to clarify. I believe the offices of Prophet and Apostle no longer exist because there is NO REASON for them to exist. Prophets and Apostles enjoyed special privileges and a relationship with God that wasn't available to regular people. After Jesus, those privileges are now available to everyone, so no one has that special status anymore. 

I don't believe you are being misunderstood at all.  You say you don't believe they exist after Jesus died on the cross, but that is not true.  1 Corinthians 12 proves that the Holy Spirit will distribute such gifts and office as He wills.  This is well after Christ died for our sins.  They are not something that people can just say they have because they are available to them now.

10 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I am not using scripture for my view. I'm using history. Why would God continue offices that are now unnecessary and obsolete. 

There is your real problem, trying to use your personal understanding of history to dictate what God should or should not do.  All the while scripture tells us (mind you this was written years after Christ died on the cross) that the Holy Spirit will give gifts as He wills.

10 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I DO believe God still acts in the lives of believers and in the world just as he has before,  but he doesn't trumpet it around as he did with Jesus. Now he performs miracles and speaks to people in private.

Why in private?  He never did anything in private before, why now??  Isn't God the same yesterday, today and forever?

10 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

This may not have cleared anything up,  but I tried. If we disagree, that's OK.  Let's disagree respectfully and still love each other in the family of God.

As I said, I saw no misunderstanding at all.  You rely on your understanding to persuade your theology and I use scripture.  Nothing hateful about our discussion that I see.  We are told through scripture to have such discussions.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

and

Colossians 4:6

Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.

[Waggles]

20 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

There are no prophets because the office of Prophet ceased to exist after Jesus.

Totally false and unscriptural ...

in the Spirit-filled Pentecostal church of the NT and of today

1Cor 12:1  Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. 
7  To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 
8  For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 
9  to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 
10  to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

1Cor 14:4  The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 
5  Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up. 
6  Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? 

1Cor 14:29  Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 
30  If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 
31  For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 
32  and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 
33  For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

[Waggles]

10 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I believe the offices of Prophet and Apostle no longer exist because there is NO REASON for them to exist.

How wrong can a person be?

The gospel is still being preached throughout the world and the global south [the Third World] is enjoying an enormous Pentecostal revival with signs and miracles following just as in the NT.