Who is "Alive & Remains" in 1 Thess 4:17?

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

So you and @truth7t7 and @AdHoc are saying the writer is stating that those who are "alive" and those who "are left" are one and the same, right?

Naw. My appreciation is on page 2, two-thirds down, posted on 1/24.

But just to expand the matter a bit, there are some scholars who say that every matter that the letters bring up, had its beginning in the gospels. This is certainly true of 1st Thessalonians 4. Let's look at Matthew 24.

If one is true to the context then Matthew 24:1-31 is all about Jewry. It is how the Apostles (who are sent to the circumcision - Gal.2) will experience the age of grace. It starts with the Temple and ends with the gathering of those who were scattered to the four winds - Israel. Then our Lord abruptly changes context with a parable and five issues are mentioned NONE OF WHICH ARE EVENTS AT THE END TIME EXCEPT ONE
1. The parable is about Judah blossoming. I won't discuss this for brevity's sake

2. The Lord then shows the MORAL condition of the world in which the Apostles find themselves sojourners - like the days of Noah. They will be living a normal life and suddenly destruction will come

3. Having dealt with Judah and the world, the Lord now turns to the Church. Working in a field is evangelizing according to Matthew 13:38. Working at a mill is preparing processed bread before leaven is added but the chaff is removed. TWO is the umber of witness. So this all adds up to the Church. Into this atmosphere of SERVICE in the Church comes a THIEF. The Greek word for "coming" is "Parousia". It literally means "PRESENCE". In verse 39 the flood "took" the unsuspecting. It is a different Greek word to "TAKEN" verse 40. The servant of the field and the mill is "TAKEN as a well-known companion" ("Paralambano" - Gk.).

Then, the Lord openly says that these two servants constitute AN HOUSE. When the one servant is TAKEN as a well-known companion", and the other servant LEFT behind the HOUSE is broken up. Finally, our Lord finishes the parable of the two servants with a parable about a SINGLE SERVANT who "HIS LORD" made ruler in this same House, and who served well - for a time. Then this servant, because "HIS LORD" delayed, mistreated his fellow servants. When the Lord finally comes, two things are revealed. (i) Even though the servant was evil, he is STILL THE SERVANT OF THAT LORD. His status does not change even though he receives retribution. (ii) His good works do not count. There are no scales of justice that men suppose. His reward or loss depends on what he was doing when the LORD came.

Points 4 and 5 are the two parables, one of Virgins and one of the Talents. I will not comment on them except to say that they all rose at the same time - when the LORD became "PRESENT" (in the clouds). That is, if they are all resurrected "WHEN HE COMES" the according to 1s Corinthians 15:23 they must belong to the Lord.

Our thread concerns point #3 - THE EVENT OF LIVING servants at the time of the Lord's PRESENCE in the clouds. Now, a THIEF comes quietly, stealthily, quickly and HE ONLY TAKES that which is PRECIOUS. This explains why He took "Paralambano" - those servants who he knew well. The rest REMAIN on earth. Those who were taken as a friend, are ALIVE but do NOT REMAIN. Those who are LEFT are ALIVE and REMAIN.

Now, turning the 1st Thessalonians 4 we have to be very precise. Is this discourse of Paul's about the RAPTURE? Or is Paul explaining how the dead DO NOT MISS THE RAPTURE. The "SORROW" in verse 13 is the theme. It ends in "COMFORT" in verse 18. The theme was that the LIVING will NOT PREVENT the dead. It is NOT a treatise on the mechanism of the the rapture. It is a COMFORT for the living that their dead relations will suffer NO DISADVANTAGE!

So, if you were explaining what Paul was, HOW WOULD YOU COVER ALL YOUR BASES in regard to Matthew 24? If Paul had written; "Then we which are alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds ... ", he would have annulled the dire warning of Matthew 24. But in saying; "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds ... ", he RE-EMPHASIZED Matthew 24. In a subtle, half-hidden way, Paul was saying; "Of course, the diligent saints will have gone, but YOU WHO ARE ALIVE AND WHO WERE NOT PART OF THE "PRIZE OF THE UP-CALLING", will be caught up TOGETHER with those just resurrected.

Of course, the Christian who thinks that there is no reward for the diligent Christians, will reject this - just like the five foolish Virgins though the extra oil was for free. FAITH SAVES, SERVICE AFTER FAITH IS REWARDED.

[Diaste]

On 1/26/2023 at 5:25 PM, Vine Abider said:

The basic question here is are the ones "alive" the same as those who "remain" and if so it seems to mean the HS was a little redundant . . .

It's not redundant if remain it taken to mean 'remain in Christ', 'remain unsullied in the face of the beast' or as the verb form suggests 'included'. 

I don't think 'remain' is in the sense of 'stayed behind' as in, "the game was out of hand and many spectators left, only a handful remained.'

That would make no sense in the context of 1 Thess 4, as if the living in Christ were taken up but some of the living in Christ were not. 

I don't see that theme anywhere in scripture.

[Diaste]

On 1/24/2023 at 5:01 PM, AdHoc said:

then Paul's words in Philippians is equally valid.

I'm curious about to which verses you refer.

Could you please cite the passage?

Thanks!

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'm curious about to which verses you refer.

Could you please cite the passage?

Thanks!

Sure. In Philippians 3:10-14 Paul writes;

 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the OUT-resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the UPWARD CALL of God in Christ Jesus.

Paul is within 4 years of his death as he writes this. In his energetic ministry he has suffered many things. He has been diligent and mostly obedient. But his missive indicates two things; (i) There are things that the faithful warrior must "attain" to and things that are a PRIZE, and (ii) he is not sure e has attained" and won  the "prize". He introduces two goals.
(i) An "OUT-resurrection". This word is used only once in the Greek. It means literally, "the resurrection out of the resurrection". In some translations it is rendered, "the exceptional resurrection". This resurrection is NOT guaranteed. It is ATTAINED (by effort). This is remarkable because resurrection is guaranteed to all men (1st Cor.15:22). The OUT-resurrection must be the same resurrection as the "first" resurrection. The word "first" means "first-in-importance" and is attached to a reward.
(ii) The "PRIZE" of the "Upward Calling". The KJV rendering is most unfortunate. The Greek defines this calling with DIRECTION, not with how high it is. The KJV should have rendered it "THE CALLING ON HIGH." AND IT IS TO BE HAD AFTER MUCH EFFORT. IT IS A "PRIZE".

In summary we can say that:
- All men will be resurrected. The Christian is resurrected when Christ comes

- Inside of this general resurrection is a resurrection of REWARD

- As per 1st Thessalonians 4 these who are to be rewarded rise to meet with the living on the surface of the earth

- Among the LIVING are two classes of Christian; (i) those who have EARNED the PRIZE of a special rapture, (ii) and those who did not win the prize
The diligent and separated Christians will be raptured first.
IF THIS IS SO, THEN THERE WILL BE THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE - BUT REMAIN. The are Christians, they are believers, they belong to the Church, they are born again, they will not go to the Lake of Fire and they have eternal lie. But due to an indifferent disposition, lukewarmness, sloppiness and carelessness, they are judged as NOT HAVING ATTAINED the special resurrection (if they are dead) and/or the PRIZE of the "upward call". 

[Vine Abider]

As @AdHoc conveyed - there are conditional promises made all over the New Testament concerning how believers run the race.  Some will run well and others not. Some fruit will ripen and mature more quickly than others.  Some will fight as if "beating the air" with little result.  Some believers works will be burned up, yet they "will be saved, yet as through fire."

Many believers clearly (including many on this forum) see that we will be accountable for the things done in this body after we are saved, that is, will our works be tested as "gold, silver and precious stone" at the Bema of Christ?

However, not so many see that there are also conditions given regarding an early first-fruit rapture, which is taken up before the rest (remaining) general harvest.

[truth7t7]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

- Among the LIVING are two classes of Christian; (i) those who have EARNED the PRIZE of a special rapture, (ii) and those who did not win the prize
The diligent and separated Christians will be raptured first.
IF THIS IS SO, THEN THERE WILL BE THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE - BUT REMAIN. The are Christians, they are believers, they belong to the Church, they are born again, they will not go to the Lake of Fire and they have eternal lie. But due to an indifferent disposition, lukewarmness, sloppiness and carelessness, they are judged as NOT HAVING ATTAINED the special resurrection (if they are dead) and/or the PRIZE of the "upward call". 

There are two classes of living humans in the world, saved and unsaved

There is one time of resurrection in the future, at this time those who's names are written in the book of life will be resurrected to eternal life, those not found in the book of life will resurrect to eternal damnation, John 5:28-29, Revelation 20:15-19 

[seeking the lost]

On 1/24/2023 at 9:08 AM, Vine Abider said:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:16-17

Why does this specifically say, "and remains" (or "are left")?  After the dead are raised, it doesn't just say those are "still alive" will be caught up to the clouds, but rather it distinguishes those "who are still alive and remain."  Why is that - are there some who are alive on the earth that are taken before the Lord descends to the cloud (meaning some will be "alive and remain")?

The time setting is when satan is loosed at the end of the thousand years.  The and remain is that they have remained faithful.  They have not succumbed to the second death.  This is the time of the resurrection.

[truth7t7]

38 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

The time setting is when satan is loosed at the end of the thousand years.  The and remain is that they have remained faithful.  They have not succumbed to the second death.  This is the time of the resurrection.

The resurrection of "All" takes place at the time of "The Great Tribulation" when the final judgement takes place as Daniel 12:1-2 teaches below

Your suggestion the resurrection takes place "After" a 1,000 year Millennium on this earth is wrong 

1.) A time of trouble never seen in world history "At That Time"

2.) Those written in the book, final judgment taking place

3.) The resurrection of "All", everlasting life, everlasting contempt

"At That Time"

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Edited January 30, 2023 by truth7t7

[seeking the lost]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

The resurrection of "All" takes place at the time of "The Great Tribulation" when the final judgement takes place as Daniel 12:1-2 teaches below

Your suggestion the resurrection takes place "After" a 1,000 year Millennium on this earth is wrong 

1.) A time of trouble never seen in world history "At That Time"

2.) Those written in the book, final judgment taking place

3.) The resurrection of "All", everlasting life, everlasting contempt

"At That Time"

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

We look at the same text and see different things.  Dealing with the text of Revelation 20 there are two resurrections identified.  The second is the only one that includes those that are described as the rest of the dead.  That is what I see in Dan. 12:2.  This is the time of the Matthew 25 separation of sheep and goats.  Sheep and goats parallel everlasting life and everlasting contempt.  Jesus spoke of the resurrection of those who believe in Him and said it would be on the last day.

John 6:44 KJV
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The last day is at the end of the thousand years.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

The resurrection of "All" takes place at the time of "The Great Tribulation" when the final judgement takes place as Daniel 12:1-2 teaches below

Your suggestion the resurrection takes place "After" a 1,000 year Millennium on this earth is wrong 

1.) A time of trouble never seen in world history "At That Time"

2.) Those written in the book, final judgment taking place

3.) The resurrection of "All", everlasting life, everlasting contempt

"At That Time"

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Why not emphasize "THY PEOPLE"? The prophecy only pertains to Israel - Daniel's people. And then you should make a comment why it s "MANY" in verse 2. Should it not be "ALL"?