Who is "Alive & Remains" in 1 Thess 4:17?

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, Jaydub said:

Rev 7:3

“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

what about the 14400 are they effected by Gods wrath?

These servants of God are protected because they are sealed by God,. We are also servants of God with his seal the Holy Spirit and will not face Gods wrath

Your missing the point of the text. Its not speaking of Gods wrath, but of his love and mercy, When we enter into heaven, the troubles of this world will no longer effect us. No longer will people hunger. No longer will people thirst, no longer will we be working all day in the hot sun, and all our sorrows will be wipe away, all our tears will be wipe away. Verse 15 is not speaking of wrath 

Greetings brother - and thank you for your reply. I have read it through a number of times, and I must admit that I am not sure which point of mine you are addressing. You mentioned Revelation 7:3 and those of Israel who are sealed. Then you alluded to 7:15 which does not address Israel, nor the 144,000 but "a great number of ALL Nations". That they passed through the Great Tribulation is clearly stated. That they hungered and thirsted and wept is also clearly stated. There is no record of heaven solving the problem. Is it not the Lord Who comforts them (v.17)?

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Well said. I am a little late to the discussion. To clarify my thoughts and understanding, would the following be accurate?

Daniel's 70^th week is the entire seven-year Tribulation. The time of Jacob's trouble is the last 3 ½ years of the Tribulation, a.k.a. the Great Tribulation. For the first 3 ½ years, Israel is living in relative peace under the Antichrist covenant while most of the world is in turmoil and war. There are no gaps in time in these seven years. At the midpoint with the A.O.D., the Great Tribulation begins, the final 3 ½ years, the time of Jacob's trouble.

Revelation chapter six, verse one, the first seal, is the introduction to the Antichrist. Taking peace from the earth is a global war. The rest of the seal judgments culminate from worldwide death and war. As verse 9 describes, the first batch of Tribulation saints is under the alter, questioning how much longer. They must wait until the rest of their tribulation brethren are slain for the word of God.

As we discussed a while back, it perplexes me if these seal judgments are inside the seven-year Tribulation. These martyred Tribulation saints should know where they were in the seven years—needing not to ask how much longer and to rest. Perhaps they are the martyred saints of all time, but the context of Revelation six limits the time to the seal judgments and beyond.

In my view, the official beginning of the Tribulation starts when the Antichrist confirms a covenant with Israel (Dan. 9:27). It begins as described with the Lamb opening up the seal judgments in Revelation chapter six. If this is not God's wrath being poured out, I do not know what is. But it is going to get worse, much worse (Rev. 14:10).

Christians are appointed Tribulation in this world, as those under Ceasars Rome and Catholic Rome with the inquisitions and crusades.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have Tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  

It is interesting to witness the times in which we are living. Our government officials stating conservatives and Christians are a basket of deplorables, intolerant, non-inclusive, and domestic terrorists. Woke groups and alphabet gender identities at war with God and Christians. Both groups claim we are prejudiced, non-inclusive, bigots, and the cause of global problems.

Okay, the best way to answer you is to explain how I see it, and then you can either agree or counter.

Daniel's 70th week is 7 years. The beginning of this 7 years is pegged by the Beast "strengthening" THE Covenant (lit. Heb.). Which Covenant it is is discovered by HOW he breaks it. He breaks THE Covenant by stopping the daily oblation. Now, there is only ONE COVENANT in existence that has the daily oblation as part of it - the Covenant made with Moses at Sinai. This leads to more information. The daily oblation is done morning and evening at the TEMPLE.

The Covenant of Law cannot be completed at the moment because the Temple is an integral part of the Law (see Deuteronomy Chapters 14 to 16). So a daily oblation is a sure guarantee that the Temple has been erected. The Law also forbids any man except the High Priest of Israel entering the Holy of Holies. So, for the first three and one half years, the Beast is a World POLITICAL leader living in Jerusalem and favoring Israel so that they say "peace".

But the Beast's goal is also Satan's. That is, to be worshiped as God. So after 3½ years, the Beast stops the daily oblation and the ten kings who gave their power to the Beast, destroy world religion (see Revelation 17). The Beast (and Satan) cannot tolerate any opposing religion so ALL religion is abolished except that of the Beast.

With this maneuver the Beast becomes world POLITICAL leader AND world RELIGIOUS leader. To establish himself as such, he moves his quarters to the Holy of Holies. This "desolation" of the holy of Holies, is THE abomination to God Who claims any Temple in Jerusalem as His (2nd Thess 2:1-4). It is at this point that our Lord Jesus, in Matthew 24, advises those in sight of this abomination to start running for the hills. We now have a GENTILE king and an unclean MAN in the Holy of Holies. This event, says Matthew 24:15-21, so incenses the Father that the Great Tribulation is unleashed. It lasts for the 1260 days, 42 months, and/or the time, times and half a time.

Now, Chapter 6 of Revelation has a certain event to peg its timing. It is this. According to Chapter 20:1-6 the martyrs are GUARANTEED to rule with Christ in the millennium. They are also guaranteed to be partakers of the FIRST RESURRECTION. So, the fact that the martyrs are still under the altar, and the fact that it is is ONLY their SOULS, indicates that they have NOT YET been resurrected. Added to this, their prayer is for THEIR vengeance. The Lord does not rebuke them like He rebuked His disciples who wanted to call down fire during the gospel age. This means that the age of grace IS OVER.

Now notice the sequence in Matthew 24. There is the preaching of the gospel to all nations - the age of grace. But then wars start and from verses 6-8 you have the effects of the four horsemen. In Matthew 24 it is "the end is not yet". In Revelation 6 it is "wait! Some more martyrs must be killed". That is, with martyrs still in Hades, the "wrath" has not begun. They prayer of the martyrs will be answered shortly. Only THEN does it say that the Tribulation is unleashed. This timing agrees with 1st Thessalonians 4:13  to 5:9 and 2nd Thessalonians 2 with Luke 20.

To put it plainly, the martyrs are resurrected AFTER the first four Seals, and BEFORE the Beast is RELIGIOUS Leader (2nd Thess.2:1-6). The actual day or date then cannot be known because the only event that must take place as an indicator to the Church is the Fig Tree of Matthew 24 and that is subject to THE Covenant of Law for the first 3½ years. The only indicator to us of the Church is the Temple completed and its leaves (it's works of Law, including the daily oblation). So the rapture could be any of the 1260 days BEFORE the Abomination of Desolaaion.

But this does not help you much. In Revelation 20 you must be part of the FIRST Resurrection. In Philippians 3:10-14 you must be "counted worthy" and "attain". In Luke 20 you must be "counted worthy" and in Revelation 3:10 it is "because" you did something. That "Upward-Call" (lit.Gk.) is a PRIZE. It must be earned. Paul, writing Philippians 3 had served the Lord diligently and faithfully, suffering much. But he could not say that the crown was his, nor that he would be part of the FIRST RESURRECTION. Nobody can. YOUR BEING PART OF THE PRIZE OF THE UPWARD-CALL DOES NOT DEPEND ON PROPHECY. IT DEPENDS ON YOUR WALK WITH THE LORD OVER YEARS.

Isn't the Lord clever. Salvation, rebirth, eternal life and justification are FREE GIFTS based on FAITH. Your rapture and position in the millennial Kingdom are EARNED and based on your WORKS.

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Okay, the best way to answer you is to explain how I see it, and then you can either agree or counter.

Daniel's 70th week is 7 years. The beginning of this 7 years is pegged by the Beast "strengthening" THE Covenant (lit. Heb.). Which Covenant it is is discovered by HOW he breaks it. He breaks THE Covenant by stopping the daily oblation. Now, there is only ONE COVENANT in existence that has the daily oblation as part of it - the Covenant made with Moses at Sinai. This leads to more information. The daily oblation is done morning and evening at the TEMPLE.

The Covenant of Law cannot be completed at the moment because the Temple is an integral part of the Law (see Deuteronomy Chapters 14 to 16). So a daily oblation is a sure guarantee that the Temple has been erected. The Law also forbids any man except the High Priest of Israel entering the Holy of Holies. So, for the first three and one half years, the Beast is a World POLITICAL leader living in Jerusalem and favoring Israel so that they say "peace".

But the Beast's goal is also Satan's. That is, to be worshiped as God. So after 3½ years, the Beast stops the daily oblation and the ten kings who gave their power to the Beast, destroy world religion (see Revelation 17). The Beast (and Satan) cannot tolerate any opposing religion so ALL religion is abolished except that of the Beast.

With this maneuver the Beast becomes world POLITICAL leader AND world RELIGIOUS leader. To establish himself as such, he moves his quarters to the Holy of Holies. This "desolation" of the holy of Holies, is THE abomination to God Who claims any Temple in Jerusalem as His (2nd Thess 2:1-4). It is at this point that our Lord Jesus, in Matthew 24, advises those in sight of this abomination to start running for the hills. We now have a GENTILE king and an unclean MAN in the Holy of Holies. This event, says Matthew 24:15-21, so incenses the Father that the Great Tribulation is unleashed. It lasts for the 1260 days, 42 months, and/or the time, times and half a time.

Now, Chapter 6 of Revelation has a certain event to peg its timing. It is this. According to Chapter 20:1-6 the martyrs are GUARANTEED to rule with Christ in the millennium. They are also guaranteed to be partakers of the FIRST RESURRECTION. So, the fact that the martyrs are still under the altar, and the fact that it is is ONLY their SOULS, indicates that they have NOT YET been resurrected. Added to this, their prayer is for THEIR vengeance. The Lord does not rebuke them like He rebuked His disciples who wanted to call down fire during the gospel age. This means that the age of grace IS OVER.

Now notice the sequence in Matthew 24. There is the preaching of the gospel to all nations - the age of grace. But then wars start and from verses 6-8 you have the effects of the four horsemen. In Matthew 24 it is "the end is not yet". In Revelation 6 it is "wait! Some more martyrs must be killed". That is, with martyrs still in Hades, the "wrath" has not begun. They prayer of the martyrs will be answered shortly. Only THEN does it say that the Tribulation is unleashed. This timing agrees with 1st Thessalonians 4:13  to 5:9 and 2nd Thessalonians 2 with Luke 20.

To put it plainly, the martyrs are resurrected AFTER the first four Seals, and BEFORE the Beast is RELIGIOUS Leader (2nd Thess.2:1-6). The actual day or date then cannot be known because the only event that must take place as an indicator to the Church is the Fig Tree of Matthew 24 and that is subject to THE Covenant of Law for the first 3½ years. The only indicator to us of the Church is the Temple completed and its leaves (it's works of Law, including the daily oblation). So the rapture could be any of the 1260 days BEFORE the Abomination of Desolaaion.

But this does not help you much. In Revelation 20 you must be part of the FIRST Resurrection. In Philippians 3:10-14 you must be "counted worthy" and "attain". In Luke 20 you must be "counted worthy" and in Revelation 3:10 it is "because" you did something. That "Upward-Call" (lit.Gk.) is a PRIZE. It must be earned. Paul, writing Philippians 3 had served the Lord diligently and faithfully, suffering much. But he could not say that the crown was his, nor that he would be part of the FIRST RESURRECTION. Nobody can. YOUR BEING PART OF THE PRIZE OF THE UPWARD-CALL DOES NOT DEPEND ON PROPHECY. IT DEPENDS ON YOUR WALK WITH THE LORD OVER YEARS.

Isn't the Lord clever. Salvation, rebirth, eternal life and justification are FREE GIFTS based on FAITH. Your rapture and position in the millennial Kingdom are EARNED and based on your WORKS.

I am not arguing a position; I agree with much of your commentary. My mind shifted reading your comments to the parable of Matthew 20:1-16. This truth is mainly about the first through the last, Jews and Gentiles, the apostle Paul (last and to the Gentiles), and the other disciples (the firsts) to illustrate.

You threw a zinger at my way of thinking. 😊

In my view, the referenced scripture is not about faith or Salvation but of works, labor, and fruits produced. I surmise it depicts the Kingdom of God in the millennium, and I see it applies to both Jews and Gentiles; the Jews were called first, followed by the Gentiles.

Individually I interpret this parable as a comparison of someone who worked for the Lord all his life. Verses someone who started working for the Master later and later in life, and they all received equal wages for their work. Comparisons can be made with the Prodigal son in this parable too.

If my exegesis is not flawed, I see it as they all share rewards equally in the Kingdom. Then again, other parables demonstrate rulership with what we did with what we were given in the flesh (parable of the talents, etc.).

I appreciate your views and do study and consider them.

[AdHoc]

22 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I am not arguing a position; I agree with much of your commentary. My mind shifted reading your comments to the parable of Matthew 20:1-16. This truth is mainly about the first through the last, Jews and Gentiles, the apostle Paul (last and to the Gentiles), and the other disciples (the firsts) to illustrate.

You threw a zinger at my way of thinking. 😊

In my view, the referenced scripture is not about faith or Salvation but of works, labor, and fruits produced. I surmise it depicts the Kingdom of God in the millennium, and I see it applies to both Jews and Gentiles; the Jews were called first, followed by the Gentiles.

Individually I interpret this parable as a comparison of someone who worked for the Lord all his life. Verses someone who started working for the Master later and later in life, and they all received equal wages for their work. Comparisons can be made with the Prodigal son in this parable too.

If my exegesis is not flawed, I see it as they all share rewards equally in the Kingdom. Then again, other parables demonstrate rulership with what we did with what we were given in the flesh (parable of the talents, etc.).

I appreciate your views and do study and consider them.

I have read your posting through three times. Instead of answering with my understanding, I would like to lay forth some facts as they seem to me, and you can decide whether you considered them. At first this might seem to be ducking the issue but my motive is simple:- Give you an answer you can work with without derailing the thread.

I make one assumption - that you agree that no scripture contradicts another. We may not be able to explain two apparent conflicting scriptures, but our faith and honor towards God forbids the idea of a contradiction.

With this I draw on a huge source - the Kingdom. In Genesis 1:26-28 TWO things are mentioned in connection with God's purpose for man - IMAGE and DOMINION. Thus, I would expect to find about half the Bible concerned with the Kingdom. But my view is achieved with but a few.

1. To be eligible for the Kingdom requires rebirth and Baptism (Jn.3:3-5). This precludes any Israelite for they are all concluded in unbelief (Rom.11:32). This does not mean that Israel is not restored, but by John 3 and Matthew 21:43 they cannot participate in the Kingdom.

2. In Luke 19:17-19 it would seem that there is difference of Rewards. The investment was equal for all, but some produced more with the same. This is strengthened in a very subtle way. the servant who gained ten is commended and rewarded. The servant who gained five is rewarded without comment.

3. Right after the parable a dispute arose as to who would occupy the seats left and right of our Lord Jesus. This immediately provokes two thoughts. 1. Is this dispute not there to modify or correct any thought of equal reward? 2. The Lord's answer laid value on how close the lives of the disciple would follow His. He does not call is my "crucifixion" or my "passion", but alludes to being IMMERSED FULLY into a world of trouble. The more immersion - the more reward.

4. In a negative example, Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9:44-48 records "THEIR" worm and "THEIR fire". It is personal.

5. This is seen again in Luke 12:47-48. Commensurate reward/punishment

6. Finally, our Lord Jesus produces, by far, the greatest contribution to the Kingdom and is give a name "above" every other name. This must be taken to mean degrees of reward

Now, if this be true, let me propose that the theme of the thread is answered. SOME Christians who suffered much for the cause and whose worldly loss was higher, will, if alive at the coming of Jesus in the clouds - be caught away first. John speaks of the "FIRST" resurrection and Paul talks of the "PRIZE" of the Upward Call. The word "First" can mean "first in TIME". But it can equally mean "first in IMPORTANCE"!

But this does not answer the obvious fact of unequal reward in Matthew 20:1-16. Chapter 20, and the parable, starts with the word "for". This means that what went before is explained. What then went before?

[Jaydub]

On 2/10/2023 at 2:52 PM, AdHoc said:

and even the worst has God protecting His people in the Great Tribulation - for which they are unable to bring one verse.

This is what I was specifically replying to 

the 144000 are protected from Gods wrath. Revelation 7:3

Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God

They are protected, they are Christians they follow the lamb wherever he goes. We are also servants and are sealed with the Holy Spirit. God protects his people 

[The Light]

On 4/16/2023 at 10:34 PM, Jaydub said:

This is what I was specifically replying to 

the 144000 are protected from Gods wrath. Revelation 7:3

Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God

They are protected, they are Christians they follow the lamb wherever he goes. We are also servants and are sealed with the Holy Spirit. God protects his people 

Actually, the 144,000 do not go through the wrath of God. It looks like they do but they don't. The are the 1st fruits of the harvest that occurs in Rev 7. When you are reading Rev 13 and 14 you are in the seals.

[The Light]

On 1/24/2023 at 9:08 AM, Vine Abider said:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:16-17

Why does this specifically say, "and remains" (or "are left")?  After the dead are raised, it doesn't just say those are "still alive" will be caught up to the clouds, but rather it distinguishes those "who are still alive and remain."  Why is that - are there some who are alive on the earth that are taken before the Lord descends to the cloud (meaning some will be "alive and remain")?

Very good observation..........alive and remain.

The answer to your question is this.

The dead in Christ are raised first. This is the barley harvest the spring Passover harvest feast. The alive Church remains. When the Lord returns for the wheat harves which is the alive Church, he will bring the dead in Christ with Him. The alive Church will meet the dead in Christ that the Lord brings with Him in the air. The alive will be harvested in the early summer wheat harvest which is Pentecost.

1 Thes 4

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

All this takes place before the seals are opened and then the Lord will turn His attention to the people of Daniel and the 70th week will occur.

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by The Light

[Vine Abider]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

Very good observation..........alive and remain.

The answer to your question is this.

The dead in Christ are raised first. This is the barley harvest the spring Passover harvest feast. The alive Church remains. When the Lord returns for the wheat harves which is the alive Church, he will bring the dead in Christ with Him. The alive Church will meet the dead in Christ that the Lord brings with Him in the air. The alive will be harvested in the early summer wheat harvest which is Pentecost.

1 Thes 4

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

All this takes place before the seals are opened and then the Lord will turn His attention to the people of Daniel and the 70th week will occur.

 

At question here is why Paul uses the words "alive AND remain." Couldn't he just have said "alive"? Why did he add the further other "and remain"? 

If we think a certain way (i.e., there's only one rapture of the living), then we think he's just adding extra verbiage.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

At question here is why Paul uses the words "alive AND remain." Couldn't he just have said "alive"? Why did he add the further other "and remain"? 

If we think a certain way (i.e., there's only one rapture of the living), then we think he's just adding extra verbiage.

I think I explained that the dead in Christ rise first. This is the barley harvest. They go to heaven. 

Then Christ returns for those that are alive and remain. This is the wheat harvest. When Christ returns for the wheat harvest He will bring the dead in Christ with Him.

I believe the words alive and remain are used to show that the dead in Christ rise at a different time than the alive Church. The dead in Christ likely are caught up during Passover and the alive that remain are likely caught up at Pentecost.

But we are not done. There remains the fall fruit harvest. The fruit harvest will likely occur on the Feast of Trumpets as that is the feast when the last trump is blown. There is a reason that after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in with the pretribulation rapture that there are 144,000 first fruits. They are the first fruits of the fall harvest. This is the gathering from heaven and earth. The gathering occurs before the day of the Lord.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

It is the Church that is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, that are gathered from the earth. This gathering occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the ONE-YEAR wrath of God.

Only the nation of Israel, those that have fled to a place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth during the wrath of God. All believers, the Church and the 12 tribes that keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ will be in heaven for the marriage supper.

[Vine Abider]

Okay, yes I think I've heard that explanation before . . .

So good to see someone else who sees the matter of multiple raptures - first fruits, harvest, etc.