Ghost Story: Levels of Hell

[Biblican]

On 2/2/2023 at 3:12 AM, Slibhin said:

The "Old" Testament and the Tanakh are not the same book, and if you had read it you'd be aware of this. They are translated differently and the Tanakh has 24 books instead of whatever the "Old" Testament has because we don't divide them as you do. Lucifer, the devil and so on do not exist in Judaism because they are not supported in any of the Tankah, Talmud or the Midrash.

Satan is not a good guy, he is the accuser. However we believe he is still an angel with a designed purpose. He appears twice in the Tanakh, Zechariah and Job. In both cases he was acting as a prosecutor and accuser. You will notice in Job especially that Satan could not do anything without Hashem's permission, because he is subject to the will of G-d just like any other created being.

The reason Jews don't believe in Lucifer/The Devil is because, aside from not seeing it supported in the Tanakh, we do not believe angels have free will. Since they lack the free agency required to "rebel", Satan cannot have done so. The reason we don't believe they have free will is because we never once see an angel doing ANYTHING other then exactly as G-d instructs them.

So to make this somehow marginally tie into the topic: The Torah expressly forbids necromancy, spirit talking, divining or any sort of witchcraft/sorcery. Speaking to the dead is specifically mentioned as a forbidden act which implies there are spirits of some sort. They are probably bad news and Hashem said we are not to even attempt to deal with them, likely for that reason.

You said the devil is not supported in the Tanakh and at the same time you said he appears in the Tanakh in Job and Zechariah.

The Greek Septuagint is translated from the Tanakh and is what is used by the New Testament writers. It was translated by Jews and is considered accurate.

Satan is not a good guy, but he is seen as a good guy in many of the Hebrew writings.

God creates everyone with free will including angels. We will ahve to agree to disagree.

[Biblican]

On 2/2/2023 at 1:42 AM, Michael37 said:

For your consideration

1Pe 3:20
(20)  who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water.
 

Against Christ Preaching To The Dead

The reference to Jesus preaching is not to be construed as taking place after His death, but rather the "quickening" of His Spirit in Noah so as to preach through him to those who because of their unbelief are now in Hades, that is "prison".

The translation is a difficult one because it ends up giving the impression that Jesus went from His crucifixion to preach to those in Hades, but Peter was simply saying those who drowned in the flood are in Hades as of the time of his writing the epistle, and they were preached to by Christ in Noah before the flood.

The following earlier verses deal with "the Spirit of Christ being in those who preached prior to His incarnation.   

1Pe 1:9-12
(9)  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
(10)  Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
(11)  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
(12)  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I Peter  3:19 correlates with I Peter 4:6. It was the belief of the early church that Jesus did go to Paradise and empty it. He told the theirf on the cross that "Today you will be with me in Paradise." Paradise at that time was a compartment of hell and it is obvious that Jesus said He was goning there.

[ayin jade]

29 minutes ago, Biblican said:

When Jesus' disciples thought Jesus was a ghost when He was walking to them on the water, the word used is not the same word that is used for demons. I did some research and found that the belief in ghosts was accepted in Jesus' day. They would be the souls of departed pagans. 

I know that demons can also impersonate the dead and that is one reason why we are forbidden to communicate with the dead. 

Just because the belief was accepted does not mean its true. Folks back then also believed in false gods and other false things.

[OneLight]

 

52 minutes ago, Biblican said:

On 2/2/2023 at 10:13 AM, OneLight said:

On 2/1/2023 at 11:10 PM, Biblican said:

Peter said that Jesus ministered to those in hell. Because He came there was no longer any need for Paradise which was basically a holding place for the righteous dead until Messiah came. So I think it's logical to think that it's empty now and no longer needed.

Paradise was for the righteous dead. Apparently the disciples believed that there were ghosts. Ghosts then were probably seen as disembodied pagans who would not rate Paradise which was seen then as just for Jews.

I would appreciate it if you would provide where you found this in scripture. Book, chapter and verse would be sufficient. This way we could discuss scripture instead of personal beliefs.  Scripture is where the truth is found.

I Peter 3:19, I Peter 4:6.

Thank you!  I will post the complete scripture starting with 1 Peter 3:18 through 1 Peter 4:6 so we can discuss how those two verses were used and what they meant.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Now that scripture is in front of us, please do notice that there is no mention that every person Jesus preached to accepted His words, only that Jesus did preach to the dead.  When anyone adds to scripture, it no longer remain just scripture, but becomes a personal theology from scripture, and most likely wrong.  You are adding to what scripture is saying by implying that everyone who heard His words became saved.  It's just not there.  If it did happen, don't you think God would of included it in scripture so there would be no doubt to your theology being true, as scripture is about truth???  But, He didn't because it does not fit in with the rest of scripture and would make scripture contradictory to itself.  Do you want me to provide you with the scripture where your universal theology is not backed up by scripture?  It will be long, but I will.

[other one]

49 minutes ago, ayin jade said:

Just because the belief was accepted does not mean its true. Folks back then also believed in false gods and other false things.

LoL, they also believed the earth was flat.   LoL

[Neighbor]

20 hours ago, Slibhin said:

I am more then happy to discuss it if you or someone else wants to start such a thread, but I try to be careful not to start threads that attack the theology of the site.

Great, I think we each can be informative, specially regarding definitions and references to Scripture  without attacking one another, nor offending the board's theology, nor it's members at large.

Sidenote:  I'm good for a few minutes reading at a time now. Getting better!

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

9 hours ago, Biblican said:

When Jesus' disciples thought Jesus was a ghost when He was walking to them on the water, the word used is not the same word that is used for demons. I did some research and found that the belief in ghosts was accepted in Jesus' day. They would be the souls of departed pagans. 

I know that demons can also impersonate the dead and that is one reason why we are forbidden to communicate with the dead. 

Yes,  I haven't actually studied that word,  but it doesn't surprise me that people believed in ghosts back then as they do today. However since it's absolutely impossible to tell the difference between a departed loved one and a demon who can do a perfect imitation,  it's definitely best to avoid trying. 

[Biblican]

1 hour ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Yes,  I haven't actually studied that word,  but it doesn't surprise me that people believed in ghosts back then as they do today. However since it's absolutely impossible to tell the difference between a departed loved one and a demon who can do a perfect imitation,  it's definitely best to avoid trying. 

I agree. The point of my post was to counter people who discredit the existence of hell by showing them that paranormal activity is the evidence of another level of hell that cannot be discounted.

[Biblican]

10 hours ago, OneLight said:

 

Thank you!  I will post the complete scripture starting with 1 Peter 3:18 through 1 Peter 4:6 so we can discuss how those two verses were used and what they meant.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Now that scripture is in front of us, please do notice that there is no mention that every person Jesus preached to accepted His words, only that Jesus did preach to the dead.  When anyone adds to scripture, it no longer remain just scripture, but becomes a personal theology from scripture, and most likely wrong.  You are adding to what scripture is saying by implying that everyone who heard His words became saved.  It's just not there.  If it did happen, don't you think God would of included it in scripture so there would be no doubt to your theology being true, as scripture is about truth???  But, He didn't because it does not fit in with the rest of scripture and would make scripture contradictory to itself.  Do you want me to provide you with the scripture where your universal theology is not backed up by scripture?  It will be long, but I will.

Do you honestly believe that soeone who is suffering in hell and hears the gospel and is given the chance to repent and receive Jesus is going to refuse? The righteous ones in Paradise were given the Gospel so they could enter God's precense. Abraham was there as well as David and they all knew that the Messiah was coming. Why would they want to stay in Paradise when they could be in heaven? 

I don't believe in universal salvation. That's not what this is. This was a one time event specifically those who had died before Jesus came.

[Biblican]

11 hours ago, ayin jade said:

Just because the belief was accepted does not mean its true. Folks back then also believed in false gods and other false things.

The point is Revelation shows us that there are two places where the dead are extracted, hell and the sea, which is this dimension, and this offers one explanation for paranormal activity. Not all souls go to the lower hell.