The Richs who do not share are the same with the poor who cannot give.

[Sower]

8 hours ago, grahampaul said:

Most rich people do not participate to help the poor"..

not my post.and where did i call into account your patriotic feelings.

You called me out within this thread and ask a question. I responded. I do not know many rich people personally, 
but the ones I do are very giving people and do a lot to help those in need and support the church and many
ministries and missions. I was trying to point out to R. Hartono that it's best not to group them, generalizing them.

 

[Neighbor]

6 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Rock and a hard place huh?

Oh far as accusations go, maybe; but what  is a day without an accusation  from the accuser's minions? To be accused is to know something must have been done right. Or as we say, "No good deed goes unpunished".

Government resources ( IRS ) is no indicator of real giving, for the standard deduction allowed to be taken without reporting actual contributions exceeds what most people can afford to give and take time to record.

Plus, why would a person want a memory of giving for themselves even,  except if a group goal is not reached and exhortation to the group is necessary as Paul put it in his praise of what had been gathered for the "Church" at Jerusalem; and then it would be exhortation to the group to met a goal  not to individuals directly.

What does get reported to IRS is charity not church contributions necessarily. 

You  want to see the average rich giving to charities in general? Watch the Scottsdale Barrett And Jackson Charity fund raising car auction, where all the vehicles are donated, the auction is run for free, and the total proceeds go to the charities the donors of vehicles have requested they go.  $150,000,000 was donated this year at that one event. 

Personally I think people, Christians and non christians are mighty generous with their time, money, and prayers for others. They do so in an eleemosynary manner, doing so rightly- from the heart without expecting personal gain.

[Neighbor]

There are lots of events like one at a Orange County Children's Hospital auction, where rich  and poor alike, donate and bid on items, as a means of having some fun in raising funds. Often giving the won items back to the organizers in private later.

No one can give more than the poor widow  recorded within the Bible who gave all she had, for none has more than 100% to be able to give. In that sense the poor have indeed given more than anyone else at all.

Charity is not  a matter of being patriotic.  Charity, as regarding a Christian's sharing anyway, is simply an expression of  love of God and love of one another totally without thought of country or creed or race. The Holy Spirit leads and the heart hears and moves the hand to the "purse strings" to loosen them and share generously of the contents.

The hand moving under lead from the Holy Spirit doesn't take time to calculate is this a tithe? Is this a gift  above and beyond? Is it this that of another thing? It just shares, and then the giver and the recipient go on their way; all under God's plan, under which even that which may be  intended for evil gets turned to good use by God.

Perhaps, just perhaps, if one is calculating what others are doing, their own hand has not yet been guided by the Holy Spirit and they instead are still  giving or tithing of their own accord without God's will for them individually being the driver? 

 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

6 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Oh far as accusations go, maybe; but what  is a day without an accusation  from the accuser's minions? To be accused is to know something must have been done right. Or as we say, "No good deed goes unpunished".

Government resources ( IRS ) is no indicator of real giving, for the standard deduction allowed to be taken without reporting actual contributions exceeds what most people can afford to give and take time to record.

Plus, why would a person want a memory of giving for themselves even,  except if a group goal is not reached and exhortation to the group is necessary as Paul put it in his praise of what had been gathered for the "Church" at Jerusalem; and then it would be exhortation to the group to met a goal  not to individuals directly.

What does get reported to IRS is charity not church contributions necessarily. 

You  want to see the average rich giving to charities in general? Watch the Scottsdale Barrett And Jackson Charity fund raising car auction, where all the vehicles are donated, the auction is run for free, and the total proceeds go to the charities the donors of vehicles have requested they go.  $150,000,000 was donated this year at that one event. 

Personally I think people, Christians and non christians are mighty generous with their time, money, and prayers for others. They do so in an eleemosynary manner, doing so rightly- from the heart without expecting personal gain.

I didn't mention the IRS, but it's ok. That's a legally required debt and can't be considered giving. People who give to charity as an alternative can't be credited as "giving" because they were required to give anyway,  either to charity or the government.  True giving is done without any obligation and without resistance. As Paul says,  "God loves a cheerful giver". Not only the gift, but a person must have the right heart attitude as well. I suppose me rant isn't so much about HOW people give,  but as a caution that just because you don't see a brother giving doesn't mean he's not.  If you put money in the offering plate,  but your neighbor doesn't,  it's possible they are being more obedient and faithful than us. So my main point I guess is we should be very slow to judge, because we can't see what someone might be doing in secret. 

[Neighbor]

4 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

That's a legally required debt and can't be considered giving

Maybe I confused regarding IRS.  There is such a high automatic deduction that  bothering to record all giving doesn't make sense for many people, if not most all people.

Also, many people now give automatically just like paying the electric or water bill. So they don't put anything in a plate that gets passed.

Fact the church I am affiliated twith now  doesn't have a plate to pass. Nor did the last one I was affiliated with. The one I am part of  by association  now doesn't have membership either. Those that may want to be part are part. Being so for whatever time or portion of a year they may want to participate. Pretty simple that way. No phone lists, no nothing that tracks anyone.

No one is going to call and say, hey we missed you, either. So if there is a problem a need, the person has to let someone know and then the church can rally around. Usually we start in the small informal groups and then  kind of fan out from there.

[Marathoner]

10 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Did I just read a post saying the rich hoarding wealth are the same as those too poor to give?

Yes.

[R. Hartono]

22 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Amen. The irony is that those who truly give in secret with their whole heart could easily be targets of Christians who will accuse them of being selfish because they don't see them give. It's kind of a catch 22. Those who give in the open won't receive a reward from God. Those who give in secret will be falsely judged by their brothers. Rock and a hard place huh?

This about trillions of dollars saved in international Banks by the rich people of this nation while many are struggling for food on daily basis.  

If you have three billion and you donate two billion arent you still very rich ? 

What does this indicate ? 

@TheBlade

@Neighbor 

@Slibhin 

@Sower

Edited February 10, 2023 by R. Hartono

[TheBlade]

On 2/8/2023 at 5:20 PM, R. Hartono said:

You see there are trillions dollars of money saved in international Banks that belong to the rich people, who save their money outside their nations such as Indonesia while the majority are people who struggle for food on daily basis.

They fear financial crisis such as 1998 dollar crisis by Soros Will reduce their Giant saving.

Most rich people do not participate to help the poor, they are just the same with the poor who cannot give. Arent they ?

I don't know....I know some "rich" that have come and gone and no one knew the millions they gave away just to the poor yet "most" even believers new they never gave a dime. God didn't make the poor or the rich. Yeah we read how God moves kings like the rivers yet we forget those kings/queens like you and me if we don't allow Him in to have His way or as some say "lord" of our life then we toss the dice and hope for the best. Just hang out in heaven some time (ooh I WISH HELLO) see how He rules there.

If you ever tried to help the so called poor your shocked at how many want to stay poor. There is no person out there that God can't help if they would just ask and believe. All things are possible to them that believe. Like I think Jan 25th 2023 son lost his job they just let go of hundreds of people in one moment  So we believed asked for favor from the one he goes in front of. Asking standing with other believers and today got a new job paying.. the last one was maybe $12. He like it since it helped deaf people. But the new one $20h. So praise GOD glory to Jesus.

I just know there are so many rich believers and I praise GOD for them. Life is no easier for them but much harder. If you can't be trusted with little in every area God gives you.. you will not get more.. 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

2 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

This about trillions of dollars saved in international Banks by the rich people of this nation while many are struggling for food on daily basis.  

If you have three billion and you donate two billion arent you still very rich ? 

What does this indicate ? 

@TheBlade

@Neighbor 

@Slibhin 

@Sower

I understand your point,  but being rich or having tons of money isn't a sin. Many people in the Bible that followed God ( Abraham, Jacob, Job, etc ) had great wealth but were still serving God even though they didn't simply give all their money away.  God will hold us all,  poor and rich alike, accountable for how we use our money. 

[Sower]

1 hour ago, R. Hartono said:

This about trillions of dollars saved in international Banks by the rich people of this nation while many are struggling for food on daily basis.  

If you have three billion and you donate two billion arent you still very rich ? 

What does this indicate ? 

@TheBlade

@Neighbor 

@Slibhin 

@Sower

I personally only worry about being a good steward of the blessings God has bestowed on me, what I am responsible for,
and not concern myself with what you do with your blessings, or anybody else. They/you will stand before God some day.

It might help you, Hartono, to not become so angry when you see what you perceive an injustice in others, especially the rich.
That is judging people you don't know anything about other than they have more money than yourself.
We should be content in whatsoever state God has put us, our lot in life. And thank God and be grateful.

"Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have,
for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
Give as you are led, and let God take care of everybody else, rich or poor.