Is the Soul itself Eternal?

[Vine Abider]

I did a search on this forum for this specific topic, but didn't find anything, so here goes . . .  When many were actively engaged in the "3 Views of Hell" this topic came up a bit, but I don't think it was really delved into that deeply (or at least there was a lot of varying conversations that distracted from that specific question).

To start off, as the background, in Genesis 2:7 God breathed into the dust He had formed and man become a living soul.  But then, before he could eat of the tree of life, man sinned and death came.  It wasn't an immediate death of the body, but eventually that physical death occurred.  Yet something in man died quickly when eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.  My thinking is this was the soul. And once Adam sinned God prevented him from eating the tree of life, so man wouldn't live forever in this fallen state.  What does this mean . . . what would have happened to man if he's eaten of the tree of life?  To me, this means man would have received eternal life of God, which is Spirit, and man's spirit would be forever enlivened, but his soul would still be dead in sin.  Does that make sense?  (God would have no choice with man than to do what He must do with the devil and fallen angels - the lake of fire.)

Okay, some defining verses . . . I see the bible tells us in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 that man is a tripartite being with a spirit AND soul AND body (the article "and" is in between each in Greek) And that as Hebrews 4:12 states, the spirit and soul are different and can be separated. Then I believe that when we receive Christ (who is life), He becomes one with our spirit, as it says in 1 Corinthians 6:17, "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him."  

So perhaps we should be asking, "Is the soul eternal before accepting Christ? 

[AdHoc]

48 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

I did a search on this forum for this specific topic, but didn't find anything, so here goes . . .  When many were actively engaged in the "3 Views of Hell" this topic came up a bit, but I don't think it was really delved into that deeply (or at least there was a lot of varying conversations that distracted from that specific question).

To start off, as the background, in Genesis 2:7 God breathed into the dust He had formed and man become a living soul.  But then, before he could eat of the tree of life, man sinned and death came.  It wasn't an immediate death of the body, but eventually that physical death occurred.  Yet something in man died quickly when eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.  My thinking is this was the soul. And once Adam sinned God prevented him from eating the tree of life, so man wouldn't live forever in this fallen state.  What does this mean . . . what would have happened to man if he's eaten of the tree of life?  To me, this means man would have received eternal life of God, which is Spirit, and man's spirit would be forever enlivened, but his soul would still be dead in sin.  Does that make sense?  (God would have no choice with man than to do what He must do with the devil and fallen angels - the lake of fire.)

Okay, some defining verses . . . I see the bible tells us in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 that man is a tripartite being with a spirit AND soul AND body (the article "and" is in between each in Greek) And that as Hebrews 4:12 states, the spirit and soul are different and can be separated. Then I believe that when we receive Christ (who is life), He becomes one with our spirit, as it says in 1 Corinthians 6:17, "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him."  

So perhaps we should be asking, "Is the soul eternal before accepting Christ? 

First, I would like to define "Eternal" and why it is different to "Everlasting".
1. Eternal means without a beginning and without an end - like Melchizedek

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. (Heb 7:3)

2. Everlasting means that it had a beginning but will have no end - like Israel's possession of Canaan. The Good Land has been possessed by many but will finally have, as its owner, seed of Abraham

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession (Ge 17:8)

When God created the heavens and the earth, the Hebrew word used is "Bara" - which means; "to make out of nothing". The word used when God "formed" man's body out of clay is "yatsar". And man's human vitality is upheld by his human spirit - which comes from God but only imparts animal life (thus, the animals have the same thing - Eccl.3:19, Jas 2:26). The word used when God blows animal vitality into man is that He "made" (asah - Heb.). But the "blowing of God's breath into the clay vessel had a result. Man BECAME a "living SOUL" ("Bara"). The word "BECAME" means it was not, or "did not have the form before", but througha process "BECAME" something that was not before. Thus, the SOUL of man has a beginning.

The Body of man can, and does, have an end. It does have the propensity to cease receiving sensory inputs and then it moulds back to the elements. The spirit of man is the same as that of Beasts (Eccl.3:19) but because God is gong to "re-vitalize" man, the spirit of man returns to God for safe-keeping and is returned at resurrection (Lk.8:55). The SOUL of man is IMMORTAL in that unlike the Body, it continues receiving sensory inputs even after the death of the body. But the SOUL of man can experience "well-being" and "lack of well-being". The Greek word is "perdition".

Vine tells us that the "death of the soul", or "perdition" is not the lack of sensory inputs, NOR is it annihilation. "Perdition" is "exquisite lack of well-being". The connotation is not of ceasing to exist, but of deep, unrelenting psychological pain. Matthew 10:28 warns us that men can kill the body, but that God can kill the BODY and the SOUL in Gehenna. But what is sobering about this matter is that God said that in comparison to being fed to the lions, starved to death and/or staked over an ant hill and smothered in honey with the eyelids cut off, the "perdition" of the soul was to be feared infinitely more. "Perdition" is used interchangeably with "The Lake of Fire" and "The Second Death" - and our best example is our Lord Jesus Himself Who said; "MY SOUL IS SORROWFUL UNTO DEATH" - and then sweated blood through His skin.

Is the soul IMMORTAL? Yes ... and NO! It cannot die in the sense of sensing things, but its sorrow, or joy, applied by God Himself, can be so exquisitely felt that; "... the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night ... ." (Rev.14:11). But perhaps the most informative sentence in this matter is from Mary. In her BODY she felt a child. But her SOUL and SPIRIT functioned differently at the same time;

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. (Lk 1:46–47)

I judge that "for ever and ever" fits my definition of "EVERLASTING".

 

[TheBlade]

Well sinner or not when man dies he's still living. 

[grahampaul]

3 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I did a search on this forum for this specific topic, but didn't find anything, so here goes . . .  When many were actively engaged in the "3 Views of Hell" this topic came up a bit, but I don't think it was really delved into that deeply (or at least there was a lot of varying conversations that distracted from that specific question).

To start off, as the background, in Genesis 2:7 God breathed into the dust He had formed and man become a living soul.  But then, before he could eat of the tree of life, man sinned and death came.  It wasn't an immediate death of the body, but eventually that physical death occurred.  Yet something in man died quickly when eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.  My thinking is this was the soul. And once Adam sinned God prevented him from eating the tree of life, so man wouldn't live forever in this fallen state.  What does this mean . . . what would have happened to man if he's eaten of the tree of life?  To me, this means man would have received eternal life of God, which is Spirit, and man's spirit would be forever enlivened, but his soul would still be dead in sin.  Does that make sense?  (God would have no choice with man than to do what He must do with the devil and fallen angels - the lake of fire.)

Okay, some defining verses . . . I see the bible tells us in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 that man is a tripartite being with a spirit AND soul AND body (the article "and" is in between each in Greek) And that as Hebrews 4:12 states, the spirit and soul are different and can be separated. Then I believe that when we receive Christ (who is life), He becomes one with our spirit, as it says in 1 Corinthians 6:17, "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him."  

So perhaps we should be asking, "Is the soul eternal before accepting Christ? 

 

i believe the soul is nether  immortal or eternal,it is our breath life,passed on through the seed, when we die it is no more.

 

[Dennis1209]

Once again @AdHoc explained his view very well, I agree, and I see it the same way as having a tripartite makeup. I want to comment on my thoughts as a supplement to his, from the perspective of 1 John chapter 4, God is love.

God needs nothing, period. We know that He has wants and desires expressed many times in the Bible, and He wanted a chosen people for His own. He wants and desires all to come to repentance, saving faith, etc.

It appears God’s wanted both a spiritual and human flesh & blood family; thus, He created both with free will. For Him to love, and His family to love Him and serve Him:

1 John 4:19 (KJV) We love him, because he first loved us.

Did the Lord want and temporary family or an everlasting family? I propose the latter.

It goes without saying our bodies return to the dust from which they came. Our spirits, perhaps for safekeeping to reunite at Resurrection, and all to be Resurrected:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. [emphasis mine]

The soul is who we are, our being, what makes us, and our likes, dislikes, and interests. I have no doubt the Lord created the soul to be everlasting (immortal). If the soul is annihilated, then it is not everlasting.

Mr. Webster explains the soul better than I:

SŌUL, n. [Sax. sawel, sawl or saul; G. seele; D. ziel; Dan. siel; Sw. sia͑l.]

1. The spiritual, rational and immortal substance in man, which distinguishes him from brutes; that part of man which enables him to think and reason, and which renders him a subject of moral government. The immortality of the soul is a fundamental article of the christian system.

Such is the nature of the human soul that it must have a God, an object of supreme affection.            Edwards.

2. The understanding; the intellectual principle.

The eyes of our souls then only begin to see, when our bodily eyes are closing.   Law.

3. Vital principle.

Thou sun, of this great world both eye and soul.            Milton.

4. Spirit; essence; chief part; as charity, the soul of all the virtues.

Emotion is the soul of eloquence. E. Porter.

6. Life; animating principle or part; as, an able commander is the soul of an army.

7. Internal power.

There is some soul of goodness in things evil.   Shak.

8. A human being; a person. There was not a soul present. In Paris there are more than seven hundred thousand souls. London, Westminster, Southwark and the suburbs, are said to contain twelve hundred thousand souls.

9. Animal life.

To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. Ps. 33. 7.

10. Active power.

And heaven would fly before the driving soul.    Dryden.

11. Spirit; courage; fire; grandeur of mind.

That he wants caution he must needs confess,

But not a soul to give our arms success. Young.

12. Generosity; nobleness of mind; a colloquial use.

13. An intelligent being.

Every soul in heav’n shall bend the knee.           Milton.

14. Heart; affection.

The soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David. 1 Sam. 18.

15. In Scripture, appetite; as the full soul; the hungry soul. Prov. 27. Job. 33.

16. A familiar compellation of a person, but often expressing some qualities of the mind; as alas, poor soul; he was a good soul.^[1]

 

 

 

---

^[1] Webster, Noah. Noah Webster’s first edition of An American dictionary of the English language. 2006: n. pag. Print.

[Vine Abider]

So @AdHoc and @Dennis1209 - why is regeneration needed?  That is, if the spirit is already alive . . .  From what I see in scripture, it is our spirit that is reborn: "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit."  Were both the spirit and our souls dead before the spirit is born again?

And this would seem to make sense, that now the transformation process is happening in regards to our soul (mind, emotion, will).  As one old song we used to sing, "From the beachhead in our spirit, to our mind, emotion, will." (concerning the Lord spreading in our being)

Edited February 12, 2023 by Vine Abider

[Selah7]

19 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

So perhaps we should be asking, "Is the soul eternal before accepting Christ? 

No.  

[Selah7]

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Is the soul IMMORTAL?

Only a soul who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior will inherit immortality/eternal life.

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Once again @AdHoc explained his view very well, I agree, and I see it the same way as having a tripartite makeup. I want to comment on my thoughts as a supplement to his, from the perspective of 1 John chapter 4, God is love.

God needs nothing, period. We know that He has wants and desires expressed many times in the Bible, and He wanted a chosen people for His own. He wants and desires all to come to repentance, saving faith, etc.

It appears God’s wanted both a spiritual and human flesh & blood family; thus, He created both with free will. For Him to love, and His family to love Him and serve Him:

1 John 4:19 (KJV) We love him, because he first loved us.

Did the Lord want and temporary family or an everlasting family? I propose the latter.

It goes without saying our bodies return to the dust from which they came. Our spirits, perhaps for safekeeping to reunite at Resurrection, and all to be Resurrected:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. [emphasis mine]

The soul is who we are, our being, what makes us, and our likes, dislikes, and interests. I have no doubt the Lord created the soul to be everlasting (immortal). If the soul is annihilated, then it is not everlasting.

Mr. Webster explains the soul better than I:

SŌUL, n. [Sax. sawel, sawl or saul; G. seele; D. ziel; Dan. siel; Sw. sia͑l.]

1. The spiritual, rational and immortal substance in man, which distinguishes him from brutes; that part of man which enables him to think and reason, and which renders him a subject of moral government. The immortality of the soul is a fundamental article of the christian system.

Such is the nature of the human soul that it must have a God, an object of supreme affection.            Edwards.

2. The understanding; the intellectual principle.

The eyes of our souls then only begin to see, when our bodily eyes are closing.   Law.

3. Vital principle.

Thou sun, of this great world both eye and soul.            Milton.

4. Spirit; essence; chief part; as charity, the soul of all the virtues.

Emotion is the soul of eloquence. E. Porter.

6. Life; animating principle or part; as, an able commander is the soul of an army.

7. Internal power.

There is some soul of goodness in things evil.   Shak.

8. A human being; a person. There was not a soul present. In Paris there are more than seven hundred thousand souls. London, Westminster, Southwark and the suburbs, are said to contain twelve hundred thousand souls.

9. Animal life.

To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. Ps. 33. 7.

10. Active power.

And heaven would fly before the driving soul.    Dryden.

11. Spirit; courage; fire; grandeur of mind.

That he wants caution he must needs confess,

But not a soul to give our arms success. Young.

12. Generosity; nobleness of mind; a colloquial use.

13. An intelligent being.

Every soul in heav’n shall bend the knee.           Milton.

14. Heart; affection.

The soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David. 1 Sam. 18.

15. In Scripture, appetite; as the full soul; the hungry soul. Prov. 27. Job. 33.

16. A familiar compellation of a person, but often expressing some qualities of the mind; as alas, poor soul; he was a good soul.^[1]

 

 

 

---

^[1] Webster, Noah. Noah Webster’s first edition of An American dictionary of the English language. 2006: n. pag. Print.

I like a thorough study. Well done. This is what I understand.

After Genesis 2:7 man is always called a SOUL (Gen.12:5, Act.2:41-43 etc.). When our Lord speaks of Himself (i) meeting the malefactor who was crucified with Him, (ii) going to the heart of the earth at death, etc, He always talks of His SOUL (for it was His SOUL that went to Hades but was not left there. The soul is made of three parts, mind (the thinking organ), emotions (the feeling organ) and the will (the deciding organ). A man BECAME a SOUL and he is called that ever after.

The human spirit is two things; (i) a PLACE for God to dwell, and (ii) the breath of God for vitality. Recently I was embroiled in a debate about the use of the word "REGENERATION". As @Vine Abider alludes to, and I'm glad he did, the modern thinking is that the spirit was somehow alive, died and must be born AGAIN. This is not the case. The spirit of man is God's breath for human vitality. What it needs is to be filled (as a PLACE) with God, His Life and His Nature. The human spirit needs the vitality to be added to. Scripture talks of REBIRTH, but that is of the MAN (as Nicodemus alluded to the womb). When it speaks of the spirit it uses BIRTH, or BORN, NOT RE-birth or RE-born. Of the birth by the Holy Spirit. It does not say, in John 3:6; "That which is spirit is REBORN of the Spirit". It says that; that which is spirit is BORN of Spirit. And truly, a momentous thing happens. The human vitality of the "breath of God" is augmented to "ETERNAL LIFE" - God's Life.

Now, strictly speaking, the presence of "Eternal Life" should cause us not to die (for that is what God said about Adam). But God must also redeem the body of man. So God does not let the spirit be influenced by the body - and vice versa. He needs human physical death to "plant" the body and then raise it up out of death WITHOUT THE EFFECTS OF "SIN"  (singular). God not only "partitions" spirit and body, but He declares a WAR between them. In Romans 7 and Galatians 5:17 the Holy Spirit shows the spirit and the body to be enemies - and the Type of this is Israel and Amalek. God declares war "from generation to generation" (Ex.17:16).

In John 1:29 Jesus, as Lamb of God, dies for the SIN (singular) of the world. This does not save men or cause them to have their SINS (plural) taken away. It pays the price for the Adamic nature to be be overcome. It is not SINS that causes death - but SIN (singular - the Adamic nature). SINS (plural) is met y the Lake of Fire - a living death. The ransom that Jesus paid for SINS (plural) is in 1st John 2:2.

The word "RE-birth" refers to the man. But what is BORN is the spirit. The human spirit is not RE-BORN. The SOUL is neither Born nor Re-born. It is "Transformed". When the effects of Transformation start to take place the soul blossoms. This is "regeneration". The body dies. This ends the Adamic cycle. It is then resurrected.

It may seem pedantic to treat this with such accuracy, but much hangs it - especially in our understanding of Jesus. We don't really want to offend the Blessed One. We don't want to degrade Him in any way. So we must be in the position to answer;
Why was Jesus born without sin?
Did Jesus need "regeneration"?
Did Jesus need to have His SOUL transformed? What does it mean when scripture says that "He LEARNED obedience ... .?
What happened on the cross?
When did His SOUL die and when did His Body die?

...and so on.

 

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

What does it mean when scripture says that "He LEARNED obedience ... .?

The physical, mental, emotional, and social suffering that Jesus experienced whilst on earth was not something He had been through before. Following His baptism to fulfill righteousness He was led by the Holy Spirit to be tested in the wilderness in preparation for more suffering that would ultimately lead to His REJECTION FOR OUR REDEMPTION. The term SUFFERING SERVANT implies SACRIFICIAL SUFFERING, the type of obedience that is learned by experience. 

Heb 5:8-9  though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.  (9)  And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,