New Wine in Old Wineskins (clergy/laity system)

[Vine Abider]

On 3/11/2023 at 11:01 PM, Roymond said:

You would love a church I encountered once basically by accident.  They had lost their pastor and were trying to get a new one, but months went by with no responses.  When it was approaching half a year, things were falling apart, so the elders met and made a decision:  they divided up all the duties for everything that kept the church going, and part of the agreement was that if an elder thought someone else could do one of the duties they'd taken on they could approach that person, and if the person agreed to take on whatever it was, then they were consecrated a deacon (this was a church that doesn't ordinarily have deacons) in charge of whatever.  To set the example, they started with the church janitor, installing him as deacon in charge of the physical building in a ceremony not much different from an ordination -- and with the authority to recruit sub-deacons.

Soon there was a deacon treasurer, a deacon usher, a deacon in charge of making sure the church building was opened and then secured when it was supposed to be, a deacon lector in charge of making sure that someone was signed up to read the scripture lessons for the day, a deacon for taking care of the grounds outside the church, a deaconess in charge of Sunday School, a deaconess in charge of the kitchen, a deacon in charge of youth... and a sub-deacon for plumbing, one for lighting, one for keeping the sanctuary clean, and so on.  By the time it has been a year with no pastor the elders agreed they had pulled things back together.

Then there was a roof leak, and the janitor didn't really know about roofing, but there was a part-time contractor in the congregation, so he got installed as sub-deacon for roofing.  Someone noted that the carpet in the narthex (foyer) was getting pretty dirty; she got appointed sub-deaconness in charge of carpets (the reasoning being that since she plainly paid attention to such things she was a good candidate to manage it).

By the time a year and a half with no pastor rolled around, there were nine elders, twelve deacons, over twenty sub-deacons.  IT had been getting harder to find guest preachers, so the elders sifted through the membership for good public speakers -- not to be preachers themselves but to help the elders learn!

A bit after two years they finally got a new pastor candidate, and he came several Sundays to preach and so people could get to know him.  He noticed when he came just to look around that the church office secretary had a name plaque that said "Deaconess <name>" on it and the janitor's room said "Deacon <name>".  Then he was introduced to the treasurer, "Deacon <name>" -- and so it went, with seemingly every other person he was introduced to being "elder", deacon", deaconess", "sub-deacon" etc.  He just kept taking note of this until about his third visit he asked about the organization system. 

Wanting to be thorough and having expected the question, the elders had an organizational chart with nearly fifty boxes in it with the name and the task.  When they'd gone over it all, he looked around the table and asked, "What is there for me to do?" because everything was covered including missions and evangelism and a food bank and more.  He'd been expecting a typical parish where the pastor was just about everything but the treasurer.  The head elder had their answer ready:  "Luther said the task of the ordained ministry is the Word and Sacraments.  That's what you do -- we've got everything else covered."

I had a chance to talk with that pastor about a year after he'd accepted the call to serve there, and he was still in awe of what had transpired:  he didn't have to sit through the women's group, or shepherd the teenagers, or write a budget, or order materials, he just did what the Apostles had done, devoting himself to Word and Sacrament, and if there was anything he needed, there was an elder or deacon or sub-deacon and he didn't even know who was in charge of what -- the deaconess church secretary knew all that.

The amazing thing is that no one told those elders that they should recruit and consecrate deacons, they just knew something had to be done and deacons were what the Apostles turned to back in the beginning, and they didn't have to work hard to recruit because once the first three or so deacons had been officially installed during Sunday worship it seemed every time they identified a new need someone was ready for that position.

I've seen it done at some other churches but top-down, the pastor holding to the view that his job was Word and Sacrament, and insisting that for whatever needs there were it was up to the elders to find someone to take on the task, but having it happen spontaneously still seems a marvel.

This was a great story! That is what I've seen with the practical matters, that others can enjoy the portion of stepping in to serve the saints in these areas.  And what if that was also done with the spiritual aspects as well . .  that is, participation from many?

For instance, I've been to wonderful gatherings where there isn't any set pastor or speaker - they rotate the Sunday speaking among several.  The messages are always really good and genuine and it really spreads the "wealth" around (aka "if you want to learn, teach").  And they open it up for different ones to call songs and testify of what the Lord is currently touching them with, or what the appreciated from the message.

So to me the whole system suppresses so much of this kind of rich functioning of the body!

[Neighbor]

2 hours ago, FJK said:

This would be a Catholic position? 

Did Martin Luther sin when he rebelled against the Catholic Church and established Protestant Churches?

No it would not be Roman Catholic Position. It should be a catholic ( universal ) position ) in that  the Bible declares there to be organization, order, including hierarchal structure within the church body of my Lord and savior Jesus.

That not all are pastors, nor teachers, does not equate to that being a Roman Catholic teaching, instead it is the revel that is Bible based structure where there is order. Those refusing to go along with order, are in my opinion, seriously in error in their walk.

[Neighbor]

Just now, Neighbor said:

Did Martin Luther sin when he rebelled against the Catholic Church and established Protestant Churches?

Did Martin Luther establish the protestant churches? I am unaware that there is such  thing as "The Protestant Churches". Of course there is room for discussion, descent, even serious rebuke of one another, done in  Biblically instructed manner under the order prescribed in the Bible especially so by Rabbi Paul, who dealt with much discord within  the various churches.

No later than 30 years after our Lord's victory over death  He gave John the  Apostle Jesus said he loved messages for seven churches, each different for each had variants in  worship, and  activity; but none were told do not have order make each person an independent agent doing only as he pleases, when he pleases, and how he may please to do so. 

Each  of the seven where to have order.

 

[Vine Abider]

12 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

No it would not be Roman Catholic Position. It should be a catholic ( universal ) position ) in that  the Bible declares there to be organization, order, including hierarchal structure within the church body of my Lord and savior Jesus.

That not all are pastors, nor teachers, does not equate to that being a Roman Catholic teaching, instead it is the revel that is Bible based structure where there is order. Those refusing to go along with order, are in my opinion, seriously in error in their walk.

Is the system (e.g., clergy/laity) the order of God or is it according to man's interpretation thereof?  Of course, every groups believes their interpretation is the accurate one from the word.  But, I think, some systems are based more on man's tradition of how they think "church" should be done.  This oftentimes results in "going to church" to watch "a show" of some sort, with minimal functioning & participation from all the individual members of the body of Christ.

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Me too but I'm way too distracted by now after reading these 4 pages,lol.  

I was looking forward to seeing the movie,sounds great,Brother OneLight filled me in on it( better than the trailer!)

I like VA's Title,seems very fitting considering the OP and his explanation of Holy Spirit doing ,well not a " new" thing but what seems to have gotten lost along the way with all the carnality within the hierarchy of the different deniminations--- which has become like old wine skins imo

Now the Topic seems to have gone some other direction,not sure where except " it should be this n that" and bah humbug on the churches?I do like Greg Lauries passion,especially for our youths and his Testimony is wonderful.....I'd like to hear more about that Recent Revival as compared to the Jesus Revolution of the 70s ...

So what's so awful about a church hierarchy,someone has to oversee,not everyone can be the top chef,gotta have line cooks,preppers and too many cooks spoil the stew- everyone to their respective position,no?I do attend a Calvary Chapel,they've got a very nice balance and they all seem to make it work quite well-the thing that stands out most in that church is the love and unity within the Ministry Team and tons of volunteers " helps"- Praise Jesus!

@kwikphilly @Dennis1209 As I've said, when I travel I like visiting various groups, and especially Cavalry Chapel.  But to me they still hold to to clergy/laity system a great deal. People sit in pews like an audience, and there is some participation, yes.  But much of the attention is focused up front, upon a few. When I've been there I've often wanted to jump up and testify of something the Lord is touching me with, but I don't feel that freedom there, because of the inherent system in place. (again, it's just what most of Christendom has known and is used to)

Edited March 13, 2023 by Vine Abider
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[FJK]

12 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

I am unaware that there is such  thing as "The Protestant Churches".

I think we're coming from different points of view, can you suggest some scriptural references I can study to help me understand yours?

[kwikphilly]

19 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

@kwikphilly @Dennis1209 As I've said, when I travel I like visiting various groups, and especially Cavalry Chapel.  But to me they still hold to to clergy/laity system a great deal. People sit in pews like an audience, and there is some participation, yes.  But much of the attention is focused up front, upon a few. When I've been there I've often wanted to jump up and testify of something the Lord is touching me with, but I don't feel that freedom there, because of the inherent system in place. (again, it's just what most of Christendom has known and is used to)

Mmm,yes I see what you are saying BUT why not jump up and Testify- that may just Loose Holy Spirit like a Mighty Rushing Wind in that place---- If Holy Spirit Prompts us it would not be out of order ,don't you agree?

One time ,I can't say if it was in a dream,if I was awake or asleep ,or a vision.....very hard to explain but my instruction was quite clear to go to the churches( 3 specific churches)& I was given a Message regarding " membership"and some other things the Lord Was not Pleased with ...I thought" oh my,how am I supposed to go to these Lead Pastors & tell them what the Lord Says???They won't listen to me.... What do I say?

The Lord Spoke to my heart" Have I ever not Given you the Words to Speak,I Will be Speaking and they Will Listen".   I thought" yikes" but after Receiving 3 Witness Confirmations I went,in obedience ....His Word was Well Received,the churches all agreed,I was welcomed in each as a "Member" of the Body of Christ---- no more " membership requirements stuff"...

Moral of my story- if it is of God we must simply obey- and watch Him Move Mountains❤️

Many times I've felt " bound" by man's order so I certainly can relate to what you are saying ,though I wonder IF...If I could just OBEY with that Blind Faith and Trust like I did that day I was Sent to the 3 churches,don't you have those thoughts when you Know it's Holy Spirit Laying Something on your Heart?

With love in Christ, Kwik

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

Is the system (e.g., clergy/laity) the order of God or is it according to man's interpretation thereof?  Of course, every groups believes their interpretation is the accurate one from the word.  But, I think, some systems are based more on man's tradition of how they think "church" should be done.  This oftentimes results in "going to church" to watch "a show" of some sort, with minimal functioning & participation from all the individual members of the body of Christ.

I have never found that to be so at any church that I have been led into to serve learn and worship by the Holy  Spirit.  On the contrary, I have found more laborers doing more than is in general known to all,  because they are all very busy in doing their calling that they have little time for entertaining.

 

 

[Vine Abider]

3 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

I have never found that to be so at any church that I have been led into to serve learn and worship by the Holy  Spirit.  On the contrary, I have found more laborers doing more than is in general known to all,  because they are all very busy in doing their calling that they have little time for entertaining.

 

 

That's awesome - sounds like you have found a well-functioning ekklesia!

[Vine Abider]

@Marilyn C @teddyv @Neighbor @kwikphilly @Dennis1209 @Roymond @FJK @farouk I'm tagging you guys on this post I made several hours ago, which seems to have been overlooked in the conversation.  I think this is an important/central read to this thread's topic.  Please let me know your thoughts on this attached blog and let's have some further dialog on it.  Thanks saints in the light!

*************************************************

As I mentioned in the opening post, a brother I've known since our time on the crazy west coast in the 70s, sent me a blog about this topic.  I've included it now in the opening post, but will attach it here too.  Here are a couple paragraphs from his blog:

"The new wineskin was completely different from the old. All believers met from house to house without the need for the temple (Acts 2:46, the temple was destroyed in AD 70). They became priests with direct connections to God without intermediaries (1 Pet. 2:9). There was no special liturgy for worshipping God. They simply ate their food together and broke bread in fellowship with one another (Acts 2:46-47). Each one can speak and teach freely with no one dominating in God’s democratic assembly (1 Cor. 14:30-31). Finally, although diverse with opposing perspectives, they were in one accord with no divisions, and God was glorified (Rom. 15:6-7). This was the new wineskin to hold the new wine.

"A constant factor manifested among those in a revival is a breakdown and forsaking of church identity (viz. people don’t need to ask “What church do you go to?” but identify immediately with their relationship to Jesus Christ). They simply become a believer and a lover of Jesus and His people. There is an expression of loving one another no matter how different they are from each other. Distinctions are no longer a source of separation. It starts with love and is maintained by love. This is diversity in unity which is the Lord’s democratic assembly (ekklesia)."

New Wine Needs A New Wineskin 6.docx

Edited March 14, 2023 by Vine Abider
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