New Wine in Old Wineskins (clergy/laity system)

[Neighbor]

45 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

don't you have those thoughts when you Know it's Holy Spirit Laying Something on your Heart?

 

Though not addressed to me I am adding-  Of Course!

And there is  proper manner in which to address issues, which is what I understand you to have said you did. That is not counter to good order at all. 

As to memberships; there is a wide range of local body decisions made on that. Presently I am called to a body that has no such thing as membership, however I worked for one that had a very serious step by step lesson plan for member candidates.  

There is risk in not having membership. The risk is from governmental persecution if one steps out from under the constitutional protection of church entity, and also from  intrusion by  any group  that may desire to destroy the body and take over it's assets.

Extreme example: Since I am presently at the home base of Scientology, what if three hundred  scientologists came into our local church church and demanded a vote on how the church is to be run, and there was no membership  rules. It would be chaos  It could quickly become much like what our country is going through right now on the political front. 

 

[kwikphilly]

2 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Though not addressed to me I am adding-  Of Course!

And there is  proper manner in which to address issues, which is what I understand you to have said you did. That is not counter to good order at all. 

As to memberships; there is a wide range of local body decisions made on that. Presently I am called to a body that has no such thing as membership, however I worked for one that had a very serious step by step lesson plan for member candidates.  

There is risk in not having membership. The risk is from governmental persecution if one steps out from under the constitutional protection of church entity, and also from  intrusion by  any group  that may desire to destroy the body and take over it's assets.

Extreme example: Since I am presently at the home base of Scientology, what if three hundred  scientologists came into our local church church and demanded a vote on how the church is to be run, and there was no membership  rules. It would be chaos  It could quickly become much like what our country is going through right now on the political front. 

 

Hmm? Every Born Again Believer is a Member,period.  

A group coming into the church demanding a " vote"- that sounds like something that could happen with a " membership " association and they'd have to have governing Documents - like a Condo Association,lol

I don't see any risk factors,the pastors didn't see any most non - denominational churches I've been too have no membership ,everyone is welcome,no requirements

Any group could vote on whatever they want, simple enough to call the police and escort them off the Property- I'm down South,that nonsense would not fly down heeya!

[Neighbor]

2 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

they'd have to have governing Documents

Of course!

 

[teddyv]

There seems to be a bit of conflation with church structure of leadership with church style of worship in some posts.

Our would fall in the presbyterian style - elders and deacons make up the church council and the pastor effectively reports to council (although does have a voice at the table).

Coming from a much more liturgical style of worship, I agree it can seem formulaic. That said, there is a logic and reason to the liturgical pattern (blessing, confession, assurance of pardon, etc.).  I do agree that often the sermon becomes the "centre-stage" of worship but I'm not sure that should be seen that way. I think it's a natural inclination since we pay a pastor to preach (among other things) and the sermon is the most visible and public appearance of the pastor.

Another example I appreciate is how communion works as well (at least as practiced by our denomination)- it is richly symbolic of servanthood with the elders serving the congregation the elements first and then the pastor serves the elders.

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Probably not Brother as I see no objections.... I don't see problems with most structures within the churches either,Often times some people are a problem but I don't think theirs a problem with a hierarchy,unless all the Indians want to be Chief,lol

Besides,we have but One Head ,right? So as long as every person remembers WHO is HEAD,especially a lead pastor,what's the deal?

Of course I have in mind non- denominational churches,like Greg Lauries or Calvary,Abundant Life,Henry Fernandez etc   what do you think?

Okay, thank you. I was wondering about the structure mentioned and Greg Laurie himself. As I mentioned, everything I have ever heard Laurie say was biblically sound. I have never heard anything disparaging about Calvary churches either.

Yes, Christ is Head of the family, church, and everything. To my knowledge, most churches have one of the following two structural denominations; that is what I thought was being inferred. Catholic is adhering to #1 mostly, and Protestant denominations mostly #2.

BISH´OPRIC̵, n. [bishop and ric, jurisdiction.]

1. A diocese; the district over which the jurisdiction of a bishop extends. In England, are twenty-four bishoprics, besides that of Sodor and Man; in Ireland, eighteen.

2. The charge of instructing and governing in spiritual concerns; office. Acts 1:20.^[1]

The hierarchy of the RCC in #1, and a lead Shepard (Pastor) in #2. In #2, the laity does the hiring of a Pastor (Shepard) and makes all decisions according to their charter. Both are biblical patterns set forth by the apostles IMO. The apostle John was Bishopric to the seven churches in Asia Minor, according to church history.

A Pastor is a spiritual leader that has a calling from God. He is held to a higher standard. The Pastor can have deacons and elders serving in their areas of helping and responsibility.

On a biblical side note: Until I became a member of the Baptist Church I now belong, every other Baptist or non-denominational Christian church I attended had at least one Deacon. With a 200-year-old history, our church formally had deacons but has not had any for I do not know how many years. Our Baptist church has “trusties,” I have never heard of such a thing. A Baptist church up the road I attended for a while still had a deacon.

Before I firmly decide to join the church as a member, I needed that question answered, so I asked the Pastor. To ensure the Pastor did not think I was fishing for a deacon position, I told him I am forever disqualified to be a deacon, as clearly outlined by Paul’s letter to Timothy on qualifications. The Pastors reply, “there you go.” Thus, I now assume no one meets the qualifications or has not been called by the Lord to serve in that capacity.

Our “trustee” positions I am told, are for legal and financial reasons and responsibilities that require signatures and accountability for the church as a whole.

 

 

 

 

---

^[1] Webster, Noah. Noah Webster’s first edition of An American dictionary of the English language. 2006: n. pag. Print.

[Marilyn C]

May I suggest that it is our perception of the large meeting that is wrong. We are trying to make it fit an `each one bring` etc of a small group.

The large gathering is a public meeting of saved and unsaved, of people who do not know each other, of varying maturity and agendas. Then there is the health and safety issues that need to be addressed as large numbers gather. Thus, a main organizer and speaker is presented in a lecture type presentation. This works well for conferences or visiting ministries. However, to make it weekly has made it into something not beneficial for the believer`s growth.

The small group is where discipling, mentoring, encouragement, use of spiritual gifts, exhortations, prayer and share of the word by all can flourish.

So, may I suggest we call the large gathering - the public meeting, (to be used sometimes). And the small group the Body of Christ, the called-out ones, believers functioning, (often).

Marilyn.

[Neighbor]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

When I've been there I've often wanted to jump up and testify of something the Lord is touching me with, but I don't feel that freedom there, because of the inherent system in place

You are correct just up and expounding during a service would not be especially appreciated. There are  times and places for such things each week however.

Since the worship service topic is always a word by word through the Bible  exposition, the subject of reach week and the text is known to all. There are several small group gatherings that meet during the week prior to the worship service that do discuss ,question, pop up with thoughts ideas and leadings. Plus the weekly woman's group and  the men's group meeting also covers the same text and have much opportunity to all to discuss and bring up whatever they may feel led to share.

[kwikphilly]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

May I suggest that it is our perception of the large meeting that is wrong. We are trying to make it fit an `each one bring` etc of a small group.

The large gathering is a public meeting of saved and unsaved, of people who do not know each other, of varying maturity and agendas. Then there is the health and safety issues that need to be addressed as large numbers gather. Thus, a main organizer and speaker is presented in a lecture type presentation. This works well for conferences or visiting ministries. However, to make it weekly has made it into something not beneficial for the believer`s growth.

The small group is where discipling, mentoring, encouragement, use of spiritual gifts, exhortations, prayer and share of the word by all can flourish.

So, may I suggest we call the large gathering - the public meeting, (to be used sometimes). And the small group the Body of Christ, the called-out ones, believers functioning, (often).

Marilyn.

I would agree with that" the public meeting in a Bldg called A church"and then there's THE Church( the Body of Christ) - doesn't matter where we Gather,we are always the Church,ha!

But I don't see anything wrong with having a hierarchy and being organized with structure- as Dennis mentioned,even those " trusties" are great,people serving according to the purpose in which they are Called- the Scriptures outline a very structured ensemble of people's to function as One Body in Servitude for all God's Children and for the Gathering in the public meetings as well......

It's the rcc hierarchy that gets me( as Dennis also mentioned)- I mean " pope",seriously- kneel and kiss a guys ring?Just calling someone " father" completely freaks me out,how much does that oppose the Word of God?

Pardon me any catholics,I don't want to offend anyones place of worship but these things are not Biblical ...Personally I'm very happy to visit a catholic church with friends that invite me but sometimes the calisthenics are just too difficult( sit,kneel,stand,sit,stand,sit,kneel!!!!:Still,if Christ is being Preached,I Rejoice!❤️👍

Lots to discuss after service and with humor &:respect usually turns out well👍lol

[kwikphilly]

I must share something here... I once went to hear a variety of guest speakers at a very large convention(a public gathering per say)...it was well organized ,many groups came,individuals brought many many guest( unsaved) and it was good but I was a bit disappointed ,not sure what I was expecting but it was fine,I heard the Word of God .... but  ...

Time to go home and I met someone I knew and she brought some guests that did not speak English.... They were so happy that all the speakers spoke in their language because they thought the sermons would be in English..   Glory to God,it was all in English only they heard every Word in their native tongue!!

And I looked up and said " Ya got me again Father God,you just knocked my socks off!"

Anyway,I was just thinking about that and wanted to share it with y'all

With love in Christ, Kwik

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Neighbor said:

You are correct just up and expounding during a service would not be especially appreciated. There are  times and places for such things each week however.

Since the worship service topic is always a word by word through the Bible  exposition, the subject of reach week and the text is known to all. There are several small group gatherings that meet during the week prior to the worship service that do discuss ,question, pop up with thoughts ideas and leadings. Plus the weekly woman's group and  the men's group meeting also covers the same text and have much opportunity to all to discuss and bring up whatever they may feel led to share.

Yeah, I get that . . . I'm more talking about before or after an exposition.  I've been in pretty large gatherings that allow/promote people to stand up and share what's on their heart either before or after the speaking.  But I understand that the smaller weekly meetings may be more readily accessible for that.  (plus some are scared to speak in a larger more public setting)