New Wine in Old Wineskins (clergy/laity system)

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

Yeah, I get that . . . I'm more talking about before or after an exposition.  I've been in pretty large gatherings that allow/promote people to stand up and share what's on their heart either before or after the speaking.  But I understand that the smaller weekly meetings may be more readily accessible for that.  (plus some are scared to speak in a larger more public setting)

When a gathering is led by the Spirit of God, then men and women have no standing to interfere with nor impede the ministration of the Lord. Such a thing stands out like dirt on a pure garment. All of us recognize it. 

When a gathering is not led by the Spirit of the Lord, then men and women are free to do as they will. Everything in order and everything in its place; there is a proper time to do this, and a proper time to do that, and scripture is quoted as justification for this order. 

The first example is the New Testament gathering of saints, my friend. The second example is the cargo cult of man's religiosity which has flourished for a very long time. As we are well aware, the deceiver quoted scripture to the Son of God. Anyone can use scripture to justify their actions. 

The difference between the two is the difference between light and darkness. 

[kwikphilly]

7 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

@Marilyn C @teddyv @Neighbor @kwikphilly @Dennis1209 @Roymond @FJK @farouk I'm tagging you guys on this post I made several hours ago, which seems to have been overlooked in the conversation.  I think this is an important/central read to this thread's topic.  Please let me know your thoughts on this attached blog and let's have some further dialog on it.  Thanks saints in the light!

*************************************************

As I mentioned in the opening post, a brother I've known since our time on the crazy west coast in the 70s, sent me a blog about this topic.  I've included it now in the opening post, but will attach it here too.  Here are a couple paragraphs from his blog:

"The new wineskin was completely different from the old. All believers met from house to house without the need for the temple (Acts 2:46, the temple was destroyed in AD 70). They became priests with direct connections to God without intermediaries (1 Pet. 2:9). There was no special liturgy for worshipping God. They simply ate their food together and broke bread in fellowship with one another (Acts 2:46-47). Each one can speak and teach freely with no one dominating in God’s democratic assembly (1 Cor. 14:30-31). Finally, although diverse with opposing perspectives, they were in one accord with no divisions, and God was glorified (Rom. 15:6-7). This was the new wineskin to hold the new wine.

"A constant factor manifested among those in a revival is a breakdown and forsaking of church identity (viz. people don’t need to ask “What church do you go to?” but identify immediately with their relationship to Jesus Christ). They simply become a believer and a lover of Jesus and His people. There is an expression of loving one another no matter how different they are from each other. Distinctions are no longer a source of separation. It starts with love and is maintained by love. This is diversity in unity which is the Lord’s democratic assembly (ekklesia)."

New Wine Needs A New Wineskin 6.docx 25.85 kB · 0 downloads

Blessings Brother

I sure did miss that! And this one above- so sorry I didn't see that,I do tend to skip over anything to download,linksAnd apparently bright blue letters!!!! Don't ask,I have no idea how I didn't see this ...

Beautifully said and goes perfectly with Marathoners most recent post ...imo

The only hindrance to the Power of Holy Spirit is the carnal mind,it has its own agenda!Just imagine if we'd just stay out of His Way ...🙏all of us,all at once,all the time ----Glory Glory Glory to God! May His Will be Done

[Marathoner]

18 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Brother

I sure did miss that! And this one above- so sorry I didn't see that,I do tend to skip over anything to download,linksAnd apparently bright blue letters!!!! Don't ask,I have no idea how I didn't see this ...

Beautifully said and goes perfectly with Marathoners most recent post ...imo

The only hindrance to the Power of Holy Spirit is the carnal mind,it has its own agenda!Just imagine if we'd just stay out of His Way ...🙏all of us,all at once,all the time ----Glory Glory Glory to God! May His Will be Done

I also have a tendency to skip looking at links in posts, kwik. 

Amen to what you shared!  

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

@Marilyn C @teddyv @Neighbor @kwikphilly @Dennis1209 @Roymond @FJK @farouk I'm tagging you guys on this post I made several hours ago, which seems to have been overlooked in the conversation.  I think this is an important/central read to this thread's topic.  Please let me know your thoughts on this attached blog and let's have some further dialog on it.  Thanks saints in the light!

*************************************************

As I mentioned in the opening post, a brother I've known since our time on the crazy west coast in the 70s, sent me a blog about this topic.  I've included it now in the opening post, but will attach it here too.  Here are a couple paragraphs from his blog:

"The new wineskin was completely different from the old. All believers met from house to house without the need for the temple (Acts 2:46, the temple was destroyed in AD 70). They became priests with direct connections to God without intermediaries (1 Pet. 2:9). There was no special liturgy for worshipping God. They simply ate their food together and broke bread in fellowship with one another (Acts 2:46-47). Each one can speak and teach freely with no one dominating in God’s democratic assembly (1 Cor. 14:30-31). Finally, although diverse with opposing perspectives, they were in one accord with no divisions, and God was glorified (Rom. 15:6-7). This was the new wineskin to hold the new wine.

"A constant factor manifested among those in a revival is a breakdown and forsaking of church identity (viz. people don’t need to ask “What church do you go to?” but identify immediately with their relationship to Jesus Christ). They simply become a believer and a lover of Jesus and His people. There is an expression of loving one another no matter how different they are from each other. Distinctions are no longer a source of separation. It starts with love and is maintained by love. This is diversity in unity which is the Lord’s democratic assembly (ekklesia)."

New Wine Needs A New Wineskin 6.docx 25.85 kB · 0 downloads

Hi VA,

I missed it too & didn`t get a notice. Anyway, good thoughts there. Now, just one point, (you know me....) `democratic assembly.` Yes, I see God`s name in front however, it is not a democratic assembly.

`Democratic,` - a form of government in which supreme power is vested in the people. (Dict.)

God`s assembly is Christocentric - Christ centered - His Headship, His Holy Spirit guidance, His ministries equipping, His Body functioning by the Holy Spirit. 

Might make for a discussion there.

Marilyn. 

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

God`s assembly is Christocentric - Christ centered - His Headship, His Holy Spirit guidance, His ministries equipping, His Body functioning by the Holy Spirit. 

Might make for a discussion there.

Marilyn. 

A lot of things are decided democratically in fellowships.

I have been party to voting on whether to accept applicants for the position of pastor. I'm not saying this is strictly Biblical, but it is the way things are done.

God does allow some things to be decided democratically.

[Neighbor]

16 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

@Marilyn C @teddyv @Neighbor @kwikphilly @Dennis1209 @Roymond @FJK @farouk I'm tagging you guys on this post I made several hours ago, which seems to have been overlooked in the conversation.  I think this is an important/central read to this thread's topic.  Please let me know your thoughts on this attached blog and let's have some further dialog on it.  Thanks saints in the light!

*************************************************

As I mentioned in the opening post, a brother I've known since our time on the crazy west coast in the 70s, sent me a blog about this topic.  I've included it now in the opening post, but will attach it here too.  Here are a couple paragraphs from his blog:

"The new wineskin was completely different from the old. All believers met from house to house without the need for the temple (Acts 2:46, the temple was destroyed in AD 70). They became priests with direct connections to God without intermediaries (1 Pet. 2:9). There was no special liturgy for worshipping God. They simply ate their food together and broke bread in fellowship with one another (Acts 2:46-47). Each one can speak and teach freely with no one dominating in God’s democratic assembly (1 Cor. 14:30-31). Finally, although diverse with opposing perspectives, they were in one accord with no divisions, and God was glorified (Rom. 15:6-7). This was the new wineskin to hold the new wine.

"A constant factor manifested among those in a revival is a breakdown and forsaking of church identity (viz. people don’t need to ask “What church do you go to?” but identify immediately with their relationship to Jesus Christ). They simply become a believer and a lover of Jesus and His people. There is an expression of loving one another no matter how different they are from each other. Distinctions are no longer a source of separation. It starts with love and is maintained by love. This is diversity in unity which is the Lord’s democratic assembly (ekklesia)."

New Wine Needs A New Wineskin 6.docx 25.85 kB · 1 download

No thanks, now that I know what the cause being promoted is, I am not at all interested.

[kwikphilly]

8 hours ago, Marathoner said:

I also have a tendency to skip looking at links in posts, kwik. 

Amen to what you shared!  

Good Morning Brother

It's very cool that you reposted " our" Brothers blog and pointed out we may have overlooked his beautiful comments- Praise Jesus!

It's incredible that the little story I shared about that Message to the 3 churches was exactly the main point Made by our Lord.

At that time I frequented all 3 churches,they were all Pentecostal btw.,I am not but I love the 5 fold Ministries,the Full Gospel preaching and mostly everything about the Gatherings- the 1 church I attended for decades was my home,I sang in the choir and "we" did many things together in One Accord,my Salvation was never questioned even though I did not speak in tongues( Pentacostal "'evidence" doctrine)-We had a wonderful man of God for Pastor and then he died- we scattered.    After that I would go to our other 2 " Sister churches" but I was sort of being pressured to be a member by all 3,to commit to return to the choir....and I began to see man's requirements,I prayed about it alot- My eyes were opened and I could see an exclusivity that was disturbing and then I had that dream, vision,asleep,awake,I don't know?

Just as your Friend wrote " There should not be any division ' what church do you go to" or " be a member" or basically you cannot use the Gifts God Equipts us to serve with .Why couldn't I just get up and sing with my Brothers & Sisters,I sang lead for 20 years and many times as guest at the other churches- why can't anyone volunteer for different capacities if they are not a " member "? They have no problem accepting a Tither from a non member!

When the Lord Spoke to each Pastor they were Convicted,tears streaming down their cheeks- the Lord Revealed His Will and it was very inclusive for a long time-sadly,it was not a permanent change ,under the Church of God organization that is not how it's done,reminded me very much of the rcc.   

Since my beloved Pastor died I've been wandering around without a " home" church...  Still,they are my Brothers & Sisters but it's no wonder we no longer see signs, wonders,Miraculous Healings and Deliverance as the Body is not Functioning in One Accord.   I miss witnessing Holy Spirit Power every time we Gathered,unbelievers visited , they Received Jesus - so many Saved---and never " without order" ,God is never chaotic, confusing or "'theatrical"

Oh my,Im rambling on- such fond and precious memories,at least I was Blessed to have experienced such a a time- I'd love to see a world wide Revival,in this life❤️

[Dennis1209]

17 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

@Marilyn C @teddyv @Neighbor @kwikphilly @Dennis1209 @Roymond @FJK @farouk I'm tagging you guys on this post I made several hours ago, which seems to have been overlooked in the conversation.  I think this is an important/central read to this thread's topic.  Please let me know your thoughts on this attached blog and let's have some further dialog on it.  Thanks saints in the light!

*************************************************

As I mentioned in the opening post, a brother I've known since our time on the crazy west coast in the 70s, sent me a blog about this topic.  I've included it now in the opening post, but will attach it here too.  Here are a couple paragraphs from his blog:

"The new wineskin was completely different from the old. All believers met from house to house without the need for the temple (Acts 2:46, the temple was destroyed in AD 70). They became priests with direct connections to God without intermediaries (1 Pet. 2:9). There was no special liturgy for worshipping God. They simply ate their food together and broke bread in fellowship with one another (Acts 2:46-47). Each one can speak and teach freely with no one dominating in God’s democratic assembly (1 Cor. 14:30-31). Finally, although diverse with opposing perspectives, they were in one accord with no divisions, and God was glorified (Rom. 15:6-7). This was the new wineskin to hold the new wine.

"A constant factor manifested among those in a revival is a breakdown and forsaking of church identity (viz. people don’t need to ask “What church do you go to?” but identify immediately with their relationship to Jesus Christ). They simply become a believer and a lover of Jesus and His people. There is an expression of loving one another no matter how different they are from each other. Distinctions are no longer a source of separation. It starts with love and is maintained by love. This is diversity in unity which is the Lord’s democratic assembly (ekklesia)."

New Wine Needs A New Wineskin 6.docx 25.85 kB · 1 download

I, too, overlooked the attachment, just now reading and trying to digest the contents. There are several main topics (Ekklesia, the Holy Spirit, revival, democracy, wineskin, Judaism vs. Christianity, assembling as the body of Christ, and the building). I am confused about the content of the discussion, and I am assuming what the Ekklesia is and is not.

Reading the blog, Galatians 2:11-21 immediately came to mind, and the event(s) that transpired caused Paul to censure and openly correct Peter and the hypocrisy.

Specifically, what are we discussing, Vine?

[Neighbor]

25 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Oh my,Im rambling on-

It is a good ramble.

To cherish the use of a good pastor by God and then to miss one greatly is not a rambling but a sharing. It is not idolizing either, it is  perhaps sadness mixed with the joy of triumph in Jesus' victory over death too.

In an it's all about me moment here I share that I too have lost a beloved mentor teacher pastor just in the last year,  Jim Coy.

I have wondered; well I was led to make yet another physical move Lord. I was led to a church body not knowing why ahead of time. I just learned a major point through this man and you up and take him home. What's with that?

Do I stay with this body of Christ Jesus,  am I to go - be led - elsewhere now? I think for me the answer is no, say where I have been led, for I have never been led to follow a man, but to learn from many a man of Your authority and Your will for my life.

Selfishly I think it would be cool if God would just lead me a few blocks away to a different body of Christ if He feels I need it; but no it is always halfway across the country it seems. Makes for adventures though, and that's pretty cool too. Hard but pretty cool.

 

 

[kwikphilly]

1 hour ago, Neighbor said:

It is a good ramble.

To cherish the use of a good pastor by God and then to miss one greatly is not a rambling but a sharing. It is not idolizing either, it is  perhaps sadness mixed with the joy of triumph in Jesus' victory over death too.

In an it's all about me moment here I share that I too have lost a beloved mentor teacher pastor just in the last year,  Jim Coy.

I have wondered; well I was led to make yet another physical move Lord. I was led to a church body not knowing why ahead of time. I just learned a major point through this man and you up and take him home. What's with that?

Do I stay with this body of Christ Jesus,  am I to go - be led - elsewhere now? I think for me the answer is no, say where I have been led, for I have never been led to follow a man, but to learn from many a man of Your authority and Your will for my life.

Selfishly I think it would be cool if God would just lead me a few blocks away to a different body of Christ if He feels I need it; but no it is always halfway across the country it seems. Makes for adventures though, and that's pretty cool too. Hard but pretty cool.

 

 

I can certainly relate to your own experience with being torn about staying or leaving---- our congregation stayed together for more than a year after our Pastor died,we got through it ,the elders and deacons picked up and shared responsibilities - it was going quite well until church of God stepped in and sent us a Pastor .. our Bishop ( our dearly beloved Pastor)had raised up a young man from his youth that was to take his place and that didn't happen

But God had other Plans for the young Pastor,he was sent to North Carolina and Pastors a wonderful congregation ,he was bountifully Blessed to Bless so many .Our congregation went from a few hundred down to maybe 30 ...it was time for me to go to and that's when I was lead to Calvary Chapel.   It's good there,sound doctrine but fairly large and less Intimate- I still alternate between Calvary & my old home.  ..lately Ive not been motivated to go anywhere- there's always the televised services though it just not the same as being " together'

Thanks for sharing,I'm glad you found a place of Worship