Who is the Man Child in Revelation 12?

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

What causes the war in heaven? 

Hi VA,

Excellent question!

This is the age old `war` the rebellion that God is dealing with, (in His own time). 

When God made the three realms in His great kingdom, He made rulership positions there. 

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and FOR HIM.` (Col. 1: 16)

1.Thrones (seat of authority) and Dominions. Third heaven. (angelic realm)

2. Principalities and Powers. Lower heavens, the Universe. (sun, moon, stars etc)

3. Atmospheric heaven and earth.

 

Each realm had rebellious rulership. It is these that Christ will deal with. (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)

Lucifer the kingpriest, rebelled and was cast out of the highest heaven, (Thrones & Dominions) (Isa. 14: 12 & 13,  Ez. 28: 14 - 16) He usurped the lower realm authority, (Principalities and Powers). (Eph. 2: 2,  6: 12)

God could have dealt with Satan then but God had further plans. These involve bringing sons to glory, to the very realm where Satan fell from, (Thrones (seat of authority) and Dominions). These `sons` have the life of Christ within and reveal to fallen angels, principalities and powers, His wisdom through us. (Eph. 3: 10) 

Then, when the Father has brought the nations to His Son`s feet for judging, (Ps. 110: 1) we read that Christ begins to `rule in the midst of (His) enemies.` (Ps. 110: 2)

This is the `WAR,` the battle for authority in the Principalities and Powers realm. But God has planned His rulership for that realm. 

I will post more later. Marilyn. 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

5 hours ago, Selah7 said:

The “accuser” is Satan.  
“them” are the overcomers
“they” are the overcomers—the Elect, who will be delivered up and give testimony 

Where does it say that “the man child is the overcomers”?  I don’t see that written anywhere,@Vine Abider.  

s e l a h

In Revelation 12:1-5

1. A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. ² She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. ³ Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. ⁴ Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.

****In the narrative we have a special woman pregnant and in labour. V.1,2.

what does it mean that the woman was enveloped in the Sun..or clothed with the Sun.

entrenched with the Sun...Greek "peribalo" (the verb)...

It is not that the woman picked her attire and she choose an attire to clothe her self with the picture of the Sun. No it is not what happened in this way...

What happened is that she was chosen to be in that situation...chosen from the Sun...

The Sun put his blessing on the woman...it was the act of the Sun to cloth the woman with what he had...she was chosen from the Sun and the Sun rested upon her...

because this is about the baby she was carrying in her womb and about to be born...we cannot say that the Sun on the woman rested his special blessing upon the woman only at that precide time while she was giving birth...but it is understood that she must have been chosen earlier from the Sun to bring forth this baby boy...

she must have been clothed with the Sun from the day of the conception...

There is not a male figure to suggest that he is the Father of the baby about to be born. 

the twelve stars on the crown on the woman's head must be and should be the twelve Patriarhs of the Nation of Israel and the woman is one of her descendants.. 

the twelve Patriarhs are the Fathers of the Nation of Israel...there off we called Israel as in the Old Covenant..who had the promise of God and were looking forwards and were expecting the coming of the special one God had promised to them...

God had promised only one shall come from him...the promised was only for one only man to be born that way...and everything that is referring to the special birth of this child is in the SINGULAR and never in the plural...

And the reference in verses 5 and six is only Singular...indicating that he is given something that was promised and kept waiting only for him...he is definitely the firs if they were others..but definitely he (in the SINGULAR) Is she only one to be sharing the Throne of God...to be sitted with God on his Throne...or God honoring him and gave him the place that was promised to him...

in Revelation 3: Jesus is saying that he sat on the Throne of God together with God...and he said that in reference to some of the believers that if they meet the criteria they will be sitted on his Throne together with him...and not on the Throne of God...

because Jesus said to those who will be qualified : that they will be sitted on his Throne together with him as he himself was qualified or met the criteria and he sat on the God's Throne together with God...

only the Son of God gets to sit on the Throne with God..

the others are getting to sit on the Throne of Jesus their Redeemer...

Jesus was not Redeemed...he is the Son of God the Redeemer...only the Redeemer the one who brought children to God ...the Lamb of God gets to sit with God on his Throne..the one to whom God gave his Heavenly Kingdom to ruled over it.

 

 ⁵ She gave birth to a son, a male child, who

“will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”^[a] 

And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

@Selah7, 

In the dream of Joseph the Sun in his deam is a reference to his Father...

And in Revelation 12:1 the reference to the Sun ...or the woman entrenched with the Sun is a reference that the child to be born is the Son of God or that God is his Father..

The narrative in Revelation 12 is given to people after the fact of the narrative in Luke..and the prophetic in Genesis about the seed of the woman and the Isaiah 7:14 that the Lord will give you a sign...a virgin with give birth...a virgin is referring without having known a man...that no man will be the Father of this child even though is born from a woman...

In Isaiah 9:5,6..the rulership of the Kingdom of God is given to that child....definitely not as a child ...NO never as a child...indicating that the child is the Son of God and this is why God gave him the Kingdom because of him God has children and the Kingdom has children in the name of his Son...in his blood...the blood of the Slain Lamb of God...

[Marilyn C]

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

To my esteemed sister Marilyn C, your counter argument was just semantics. If scripture says that the moon is under her feet and I say that she placed her feet on the moon, what then is the great failure? But you establish the woman as Mary.

Hi Ad Hoc,

I am appreciating your thread and discussion. Now I may have to hand back my `esteemed` position as I did not say `Mary` was the woman. Sorry you thought that. Anyway, I am working on your New Jerusalem thought. I will give more detail tomorrow.

regards, Marilyn.

[Mr. M]

On 4/11/2023 at 11:03 AM, Vine Abider said:

So who do you think this man-child is and what supports your thinking?

The man-child, the woman, and the victorious overcomers!

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the

promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of

many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 

John 8:58 Jesus said to them,

Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.

Messiah, the head, and all who belong to Him, born of Mt. Zion.

Psalm 87:

5 And of Zion it will be said,
“This one and that one were born in her;
And the Most High Himself shall establish her.
6 The Lord will record,
When He registers the peoples:
This one was born there. Selah

The woman in heaven is Mt. Zion

Galatians 4:

26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 

27 For it is written:

Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.

All who are born again in Christ, are born

from above, without travail!

Hebrews 12:

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to

the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,

to an innumerable company of angels, 

23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn 

who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all,

to the spirits of just men made perfect. (justified by faith)

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Done, when the 70 were sent out.

Luke 10:

17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying,

Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.

18 And He said to them,

I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 

19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample

on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power

of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 

20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits

are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your

names are written in heaven.

 

[Selah7]

11 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Why did war break out in heaven in verse 7?  Someone appeared in heaven . . . the man-child. And immediately the devil was cast down.  They, the overcomers were responsible.  This is all one scenario. Christ is not mentioned specifically, but is present in His overcomers.  The verses in this chapter all flow with one big scene - the expulsion of the usurper by man retaking his God given place (which Christ has won for us, and has imparted it to born-again children. The overcomers stand upon His victory - "They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb"). 

Where do you see overcomers mentioned?  Can you provide a scripture that says this?  Michael and his angels were involved, along with Satan and his angels, not overcomers.  Satan loses and is cast down to earth.  

“By the blood of the Lamb,” overcomers/elect/true believers in the end times will stand up against the Antichrist during the great tribulation on earth, not heaven.

Satan and the 10 kings he brings with him will “make war” with the Lamb (Jesus).  Now who overcomes Satan and his angels?  It is Jesus Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords!

"These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."

- Revelation 17:14 (NKJV)

Who are those with Jesus?  It’s the Elect/believers.  Once again, it is Jesus, the Lamb of God, who overcomes Satan.

s e l a h
 

[Mr. M]

3 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Where do you see overcomers mentioned?  Can you provide a scripture that says this?

Luke 10:

17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying,

Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.

18 And He said to them,

I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 

19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents

and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and

nothing shall by any means hurt you. 

20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits

are subject to you, but rather rejoice because 

your names are written in heaven.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Mr. M
cosmetic

[Selah7]

9 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Luke 10:

17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying,

Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.

18 And He said to them,

I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 

19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents

and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and

nothing shall by any means hurt you. 

20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits

are subject to you, but rather rejoice because 

your names are written in heaven.

God’s children have power on the earth, not in heaven, which I believe is what VA is opining.  Refer to posts above please.   s e l a h

[Mr. M]

3 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

God’s children have power on the earth, not in heaven, which I believe is what VA is opining.  Refer to posts above please.   s e l a h

Matthew 16:19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Ephesians 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

[Mr. M]

11 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Refer to posts above please.   s e l a h

Please take your own advice and read my post above.