Who is the Man Child in Revelation 12?

[Your closest friendnt]

14 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Thank you!

I wanted to elaborate further here . . . I think now with the proper understanding that the man-child is a corporate entity, that is, the church Christ is building, so many verses like the one in Matthew 16:18 (above) make much more sense!  Jesus is clearly relating here that He will construct something out of His believers, which He will use to go against the devil. (whatever THEY bind in heaven will be bound)

Another place coming to mind regarding the purpose of the church is Ephesians.  There is such a high revelation of the ekklesia in this book!  The building of God is seen there, which is being made into a dwelling of His.  Then Paul states, "We wrestle not with flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, wickedness in high places."  Sounds like Revelation chapter 12, doesn't it!?

What do you think @Marilyn C and @Dennis1209?

 

Hello @Vine Abider, in Mathew 16:18 

**American Standard Version
And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

**Young's Literal Translation
'And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

***It is something unique in verse 18, Jesus was speaking to his disciples at the time when they were under the tutoring of the principals of the Old Testament. 

And if me and you were there as one of his disciples and hear Jesus say the word "ekklesia" or church which it was a new word to them...a word the disciples were not using...the word they were using in the place where they were getting together for the teaching of matters regarding the Law and it was a kind of schooling about matters of their Coulture..This was the place where they were nurturing their understanding of the promishes God had made to them through their Prophets and their learning of their history and the meaning of their celebrations in their religious Calendar.

The place of worshiping God with their continuous sacrifices and their offerings to God was the Temple in Jerusalem and that's where the Priesthood was and that's where the Mercy sit was and the Ark of the Covenant..

The Lord was there in the Temple...that's where he was accepting their offerings and their worshiping...

When the people prayed from whatever place the were they had to turn their face toward the Temple in Jerusalem...

This is the religious culture the disciples of Jesus had at the time Jesus said the word "ekklesia"... 

With this word Jesus made or he would make everything knew...this old religious culture will be set asides to make room for the new one, the Coulture of th "Ekklesia".

How God and his Christ Jesus will be worshiped by the "Ekklesia" and by whom? Who the "ekklesia" will include as it's members...

There is a big departure from the Old to the New way regarding from what people God accepted their worship and where and at what day...as the people had to follow their religious Calendar this is why we need to understand what Paul got to understand trying desperately to distance the people from the customs and the set mind of the old Covenant...because at first most if not all of the believers in Jesus were people who were born and raised under the customs and the set mind from the Law...

One of them was that God accepts the worship only from the chosen seed of Abraham established through the Covenant of Cirumcision which was codified in the Law of God...

Under the old Covenant it was impossible for God to established a relationship with a Gentile man unless he had first subjected himself to what the Law would required from him to do to be accepted in the community of the people God. 

This is why at the beginning the Gospel was  thought to be only for Jews and everyone who was from the chosen seed of Abraham...

This is where the "ekklesia" comes in...

The "ekklesia" sets aside all those rules established in the Law..This is what Paul was teaching that there is a New Man on Earth...

The Man of the chosen seed of Abraham born with the eligibility to be part of the community of the people of God beggining with the Circumcision is no more..

He is within the frame together with the former people called Gentiles..and both of them in their sins and having the need to have their sins forgiven in the same way, by believing in Jesus Christ...in the everlasting Atonement made by the blood of Jesus Christ..

The Jew is in the same need as the Gentile Man...in the same need to have his sins forgiven by his faith in Jesus Christ in the power of the blood of the Lamb of Jesus Christ...

Of course the former Law abiding man which came out of the Law is discipline abd he has learn to dispice the Idols and anything that has do with them and anyone who had affiliation with the worship of the Idols..and he is also mature in the discipline of this Life in comparison to a Gentile...

But this is also his undoing thinking too high of him self looking at his fellow Gentile believers and seperating him self from them...

Paul confessed that he suffered with a similar situation and had to struggle with that. 

But also Paul said that God has given to believers that come out from the Idol worship and undiscipline Lifestyle or background a special Grace and they are not evaluated by the same standards as the other believers who have come out from monotheism or from the Sinai Covenant and a very strict discipline in Life habits....

And in the "ekklesia"..there is not need for a Temple and the timely and seasonal celebrations as they were in the Law. 

Like no one has to built up eligibility to participate in the Atonement waiting for the time the day when the Atonement was celebrated as it was in the religious Calendar under the observance of the Law...

In the "ekklesia" the celebration of the Atonement in the blood of Jesus Christ is an ongoing celebration and without an end...an endless celebration and the eligibility to partake is given to everyone regardless of his ethnic or religious background without any favoritism to any one...this is the power of the Gospel...in inviting anyone to be part in the Kingdom of God and his Christ with just the faith in the heart of anyone who believes whether he gets to know about the Gospel when it is preached by someone or by reading about the Gospel of Jesus Christ in some literature...whether it is written from someone who is a believer in Jesus Christ or it is written by someone who is warnings others not to be persuaded by the missionaries of Jesus Christ who are teaching that Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins and that God will forgive anyone who believes in him...without the help of anyone or any initiative rituals taking place and have the people who performed the rituaks as their witnesses...In the "eklessia" there is no need for any confession or any rituals done in the presence of others and no need for any witnesses and records to be Kept...It is accepted by God because he has the witness of the Holy Spirit and the faith in Jesus Christ registered in the geart of anyone who believes as when someone is alone and in his own space he suddenly decides to believe...so God can forgive his sins as he is far in isolation from any other believer just in his own space and time and deciding to believes in the Gospel of Jesus Christ ...that believer must be assured that God will be with him even though he is in isolation from anyother believer as he hears the message of Jesus Christ and he is far in some mountain alone with his sheep and he is thinking what he heard about God providing redemption in tge blood of Jesus Christ, the forgiveness of our sins by just believing in Jesus Christ and the invitation to believe is in season anytime any moment any second and is not subject to a special place or to a set time as it was in the old Covenant...this is the "ekklesia" Jesus had in his mind when he spoke this word...which the disciples will come to understand at a later time...

And the Devil lost his power to take anyone in the "ekklesia" of Jesus Christ because of any kind of excuses he can give even the excuse that he used to take those people in the past...as they have been his from the beginning...he was just waiting for them to die...not anymore everything has changed he cannot prevail over anyone who is under the eternal fountain of the blood of Jesus Christ..

If he tries his hands will turn red...as he would have to reach in the blood of Jesus Christ and try to pull someone out from there...

That impossible...to go get pass Jesus Christ...He has now to wait for Jesus Christ to give to him anyone who died refusing to believe in him, in Jesus Christ...that's the only window that remains open to him.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Thank you!

I wanted to elaborate further here . . . I think now with the proper understanding that the man-child is a corporate entity, that is, the church Christ is building, so many verses like the one in Matthew 16:18 (above) make much more sense!  Jesus is clearly relating here that He will construct something out of His believers, which He will use to go against the devil. (whatever THEY bind in heaven will be bound)

Another place coming to mind regarding the purpose of the church is Ephesians.  There is such a high revelation of the ekklesia in this book!  The building of God is seen there, which is being made into a dwelling of His.  Then Paul states, "We wrestle not with flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, wickedness in high places."  Sounds like Revelation chapter 12, doesn't it!?

What do you think @Marilyn C and @Dennis1209?

 

Hi VA,

Yes, I agree we wrestle against Principalities and Powers in high places. And how do we `wrestle?` 

`For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to our flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God,

bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled. ` (2 Cor. 10: 3 - 6)

`till we come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, (mature/complete) to the measure of the fullness of Christ; 

that we should no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive,

but, speaking the truth in love grow up in all things into Him who is the head - Christ...` (Eph. 4: 13 - 15)

Satan is the father of lies, and that is what we discern and stand against. 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

On 4/18/2023 at 7:08 PM, WilliamL said:

Everything John was shown from Rev. 4:1 onward is future from – “after” – his day. This includes everything in chapter 12. The birth and ascent of the Manchild that John saw in Rev. 12:5 are future; although the birth and ascent of Jesus was of the same pattern and type. Jesus himself tells us who the Manchild shall be:

Rev. 2:26-27 The one overcoming, and the one keeping my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: and he shall shepherd/pastor them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to pieces: as I also have received from my Father.

Rev. 12:5 She bore a Manchild, who is about to shepherd/pastor all nations with a rod of iron.

Rev. 12:7-11 then reveals that this Manchild, a collective body, the elect-of-the-elect overcomers, will participate in the casting down of Satan and his angels out of heaven:

Rev. 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the Dragon [Satan]… 11 And they overcame him [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their souls unto death.

 

On 4/18/2023 at 7:08 PM, WilliamL said:

The “they” of verse 11 cannot refer to any non-human angels, only to men, that is, to those ascended overcomers of the Manchild(ren) cleansed and empowered by the blood of Jesus.

This comment "men ascended the overcomers of the Manchild...the children who are cleansed by the blood of Jesus"

If I have correctly understood the Man-Child is Jesus...

We must have the Man-Child first shedding his blood on the Cross. 

We must have the Lamb of God "Slained". 

For the overcomers to be cleansed by the blood of the Man-Child...

For those men to be ascended...we must have first Jesus or the Man-child ascended before them. 

Jesus was ascended while the overcomers were yet alive or before they died...or had not yet be born..

Is it what you are saying? 

 

On 4/18/2023 at 7:08 PM, WilliamL said:

These events take place “at the time of the end” (Dan. 11:40), the “time Michael shall stand up” (Dan. 12:1; Rev. 12:7), just prior to and during “a time of trouble such as never was” (Dan. 12:1; Matt. 24:21), that is, the Great Tribulation.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1053-revelation-12/

 

 

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

If I have correctly understood the Man-Child is Jesus...

The manchild of Rev. 12 is NOT Jesus, who was born in 7 BC. Whereas everything of Rev. 12 is yet to come, as Rev. 4:1 tells us. There is no "flashback" in Rev. 12.

[Marilyn C]

 

On 4/19/2023 at 11:08 PM, Vine Abider said:

Paul states, "We wrestle not with flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, wickedness in high places."  Sounds like Revelation chapter 12, doesn't it!?

What do you think @Marilyn C ?

 

Hi VA,

Just adding -

`For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against Principalities, against Powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places,

THEREFORE take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, TO STAND.` (Eph. 6: 12 & 13)

Marilyn.

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The manchild of Rev. 12 is NOT Jesus, who was born in 7 BC. Whereas everything of Rev. 12 is yet to come, as Rev. 4:1 tells us. There is no "flashback" in Rev. 12.

Need to comment about ch.four...what is written in ch.4 is it a future event...

The part where they cry Holy Holy Holy...is this something that was yet to come...

Is it a future event? 

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The manchild of Rev. 12 is NOT Jesus, who was born in 7 BC. Whereas everything of Rev. 12 is yet to come, as Rev. 4:1 tells us. There is no "flashback" in Rev. 12.

`And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders, stood  a LAMB as though it had BEEN SLAIN,...` (Rev. 5: 6)

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

 

Hi VA,

Just adding -

`For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against Principalities, against Powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places,

THEREFORE take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, TO STAND.` (Eph. 6: 12 & 13)

Marilyn.

This is for mature believers who have come to understand the spiritual world of the Nations they were visiting.

To let them know that the powers that were working in those people they will not be please when the missionaries reach their place and they see as people who have come to take from them their sheep...the people who for generations have given their royalty to their native Gods and the missionaries are asking them to walk away from the Gods of their ancestors and on top of that they were joining the missionaries in their evangelistic work...

Paul is warning the evangelist that the going on their work will be tough..

The religious people and the powers that work in them will not be pleased to suffered the lost of their own to the Gospel and have the families being divided for religious reasons...and they also suffer financial lost..as the stopped bringing their offerings to their Temple and stopped buying.

Paul warned them that they are in foreign territory ...and they will not be wellcome...

And those people also had their sorcery and they will try to harrash them in the Spiritual realm...or the spirits that work in their people will stir them up to cause them harm...

Paul had a contex when he said that....he did not say that will happen to all the believers including their women and their children...

[Your closest friendnt]

4 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

`And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders, stood  a LAMB as though it had BEEN SLAIN,...` (Rev. 5: 6)

Is this a future event?  

Of course it is not...

Many believers had been martyred and all the disciples and their students had been martyr...only John was alive..

@Marilyn C Hello,  I did not write this for you..

And thank you for posting, and there many other descriptions of things that had already taken place..

[WilliamL]

47 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Need to comment about ch.four...what is written in ch.4 is it a future event...

The part where they cry Holy Holy Holy...is this something that was yet to come...

Is it a future event? 

Yes, see next response.

25 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

`And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders, stood  a LAMB as though it had BEEN SLAIN,...` (Rev. 5: 6)

This is the "second time" that Jesus must present his blood sacrifice in the heavenly temple to fulfill Lev. 16's Day of Atonement, this one "for the people." 16:15 Full explanation here, beginning section: