Who is the Man Child in Revelation 12?

[Your closest friendnt]

23 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 I was not thinking of this instance. Here John is consoled but not rebuked. Christ lays His right hand on him for comforting. 

I am thinking of two instances where John is adjusted and admonished by an angel to only react with such adoring worship to God.

One instance is in Revelation 19. Check there. And the other instance is in Revelation 22. Check there.

Do you think there is some common characteristic between the two instances? In my view it is related to the topic of who the man-child is.

 

I have never before thought about the question at hand...

I do not read anyone's books about the book of Revelation because I do not believe them...because with their words they are inaccurate. 

They admit that it is their own studies...and they read the book influence by a lot input from what they heard from people who have heard from others. 

But looking at chapter twelve I come in a similar way John had come in with what he knew...and he did not let himself bring in his own understanding or trying to protect something that he had believed and hoped for in the past...

In chapter 12 reading the first verses I have to evaluate what it is there in those verses the very first ones..

I try not to read it as it is...

About a woman who is about to give birth to a special child...the woman is not identified by name but she must be someone John can identify and understand the vision...John had knowledge of the history of his Nation and the he knew the promises of God to the people of Israel...

To begin with John knew that the promise of the Messiah was fulfilled in Jesus Christ...and he knew how he was born as it was described in the Gospel of Luke....

And how it was done through the Holyv Spirit...John knew that Jesus was the Son of God..He knew that Jesus only had a mother.

[Feedmysheep]

5 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

YCF - I have never before thought about the question at hand...

I do not read anyone's books about the book of Revelation because I do not believe them...because with their words they are inaccurate. 

 FMS -  It has been good for me to read, muse, and pray over each verse of  any book in the Bible. This is safe. And this furnishes us with discernment. We are told to long for the pure milk of the word.

As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvation, If you have tasted that the Lord is good. (1 Pet. 2:2,3)

Here Peter says we can TASTE the Lord that He Himself is GOOD. It is more than just understanding (which is important of course). But it is to feel FED and NOURISHED and TASTING the sweetness of God's presence. With time and spiritual growth, with experience and deeper fellowship better understanding comes.

The question that I asked you I have never heard asked before. It is good to ask questions ALONG with being nourished and fed with the word of God. 

YCF - They admit that it is their own studies...and they read the book influence by a lot input from what they heard from people who have heard from others. 

FMS - Fellowship with other members of the Body of Christ is good. That includes reading a book of someone who has gone before. But I understand your concern. Here is a good rule for reading other's fellowship.

1.) If it helps you to love Jesus more it is SAFE. If it encourages you to depend on God more it is SAFE even if it is not that accurate. If when reading it your heart is warmed towards the Lord Jesus, even if it is not the best teaching, it is at least a SAFE teaching.

2.) If it leaves you cold towards Jesus and feeling independent and proud, no matter how GOOD it may sound, there is something wrong with it. If the result of the teaching causes you to withdraw only into mental activity rather than prayerful communion more with Christ, no matter how wise or scholarly it may sound, there is something wrong with it. 

I do not suggest you read 10 or 20 books on the Bible. But with time a Christian learns to disriminate and discern the more worthy ones from the less worthy ones. We learn to bring out the precious from the worthless. 

Jeremish 15:19 - Therefore thus says Jehovah, If you return, I will restore you;  You will stand before Me;  And if you bring out the precious from the worthless,  You will be as My mouth; They will turn to you, But you will not turn to them.

 

5 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

YCF - But looking at chapter twelve I come in a similar way John had come in with what he knew...and he did not let himself bring in his own understanding or trying to protect something that he had believed and hoped for in the past...

In chapter 12 reading the first verses I have to evaluate what it is there in those verses the very first ones..

I try not to read it as it is...

FMS - You have I hope years of enjoyment awaiting you. You know that the vision of the Woman with the child ready to be born and give Satan trouble MUST have something to do with the early prophecy given to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15.  Good enough for now. Eat it and enjoy it. Take it in and give a hearty "Amen". Pray over the passage. Praising God for its details. Be nourished in your spirit by its words. This is excellent.

I think to not listen to ANYONE else is a bit extreme. But the other extreme is to not have SOME confidence in your own enlightenment. The Lord's Spirit does speak expressely to you also.  Of course every part of the Bible eventually has to be understood in context of the WHOLE Bible.

I am happy if you have some doubts as to how this mysterious vision is best interpreted. Know that for every mysterious SIGN in the Bible there is a matching PLAIN TEACHING. With this sign too there should be plain teaching corresponding to a mysterious vision with symbolism. 

 More so than perhaps any other book of the Bible, with Revelation one HAS to master all the facts. You must read it over the years again and again until you master ALL THE DETAILS. THEN you can discern between inferior interpretations to superior ones imo. 

 Know also that this rich book is exhaustless in light and truth. Does anyone ever have ALL the light shown in the Bible? I don't think it is like "Oh here is the meaning. There is nothing more to be seen here." 

YCF - About a woman who is about to give birth to a special child...the woman is not identified by name but she must be someone John can identify and understand the vision...John had knowledge of the history of his Nation and the he knew the promises of God to the people of Israel...

To begin with John knew that the promise of the Messiah was fulfilled in Jesus Christ...and he knew how he was born as it was described in the Gospel of Luke....

And how it was done through the Holyv Spirit...John knew that Jesus was the Son of God..He knew that Jesus only had a mother.

FMS - Let me continue my thoughts about the two instances when John was so overwhelmed that he fell down in worship. 

We may think of John as the New Testament Daniel. As Daniel fasted and prayed to learn from God WHAT would be the ultimate future of Israel, So also the Apostle John. He was the last of the original apostles and was very aged. He was exiled to Patmos. There I believe that he PRAYED for revelation. Since the churches were already having so much trouble within and without and he was the last one left of the twelve original apostles, I think John was seeking (like Daniel) what would be the outcome of church, Israel, and the whole world.

The book of Revelation was the answer Christ gave to John about this. And there were imo two points in which he was SO overcome by the greatness of the final victory if the gospel and the saints that he was overcome with praise. 

I think Revelation 19 showing that a remnant, a wife who had prepared herself to marry the Lord AND to accompany Him down from heaven to Armageddon to vanquish Antichrist with Jesus. This was the first overwhelming vision. What total victory. What total vindication. What mighty outcome for the saints in spite of all the opposition. You must read chapter 19 and see that the wedding garment of the bride is also the fighting garment of her warfare.

And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.

Rv 19:7-9 Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints. And he said to me, Write, Blessed are they who are called to the marriage dinner of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true words of God.

Rv 19:10And I fell before his feet to worship him. And he said to me, Do not do this. I am your fellow slave and a fellow slave of your brothers who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy.

You see? John was overcome by the affirmative vision of a victorious wife and bride who had prepared HERSELF to match and meet the Lord her Bridegroom. But it is a remnant. And her wedding garment is also her FIGHTING garment. Compare: 

Rev. 19:11-14 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sits on it called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. And His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He has a name written which no one knows but Himself. And He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and His name is called the Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 

Her wedding garment - fine linen, bright and clean.

Her fighting garment - fine linen, white and clean. 

This is BEFORE the millennial kingdom. And this wedding bride is a remnant like the man-child. She is so victorious and so matching of her Lord Jesus via His salvation. JOhn was overcome and fell to worship at the feet of the messenger.

But what about the majority of the saints? After the millennium JOhn was shown the ULTIMATE climax of the ENTIRE body of saints in Revelation chapters 21 and 22. Here now the 1,000 years have passed. All negative things have been swept into the lake of fire. Only righteousness dwells in the new heaven and new earth. And the ENTIRE New Jerusalem has taken on that nature of what the Wife and Bride of chapter 19 were in remnant. Now ALL the saints after the millennium have been perfected. And John is SO overcome by the greatness of the vision, a second time he crumbles with worship to the angel. And AGAIN the angel has to adminish John to reserve all his worship for God. Am I right? 

Rev. 22:8,9 - And I John am he who hears and sees these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. And he said to me, Do not do that! I am your fellow slave and a fellow slave of your brothers the prophets and of those who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God.

At these two points I think the revelation was too great for him. And they both show victory and vindication of Christ's believers. 

Now I beg of you YCF, even if you do not agree with this little analysis PLEASE enjoy just reading the passages. Derive the milk of His pure word and nourish your faith  by these divine words - the words of the Bible. 

It is ok to ask questions. Sometime questions can help. Tell me more wonderful things about our Lord Jesus. 

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by Feedmysheep

[Feedmysheep]

Now of anyone including YCF wants to read more ministry along this line I have presented there is "The Glorious Church" by Watchman Nee (one of my mentors indeed) to help. Just look at the table of contents first.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books/reader.php?id=KsMcSEBoMlQI

Also "Life Study of Revelation" by his colleague Witness Lee I found as enlightening. Just observe the table of contents first.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books/reader.php?id=-WHLIovqldL0

The question I posed came from my own musings as I am constantly musing over the word of God. We can NEVER exhaust the light in the word of God. 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 

  . You know that the vision of the Woman with the child ready to be born and give Satan trouble MUST have something to do with the early prophecy given to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15.  

 

@Feedmysheep

Genesis 3.15 15  And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

** The narrative above points to a single offspring. 

To the offspring that will crush the head of the Serpent and the Serpent will strike his heal....

*we have enough knowledge from the scriptures that as long as the promise about the "offspring" were renewed from the prophets that the "offspring" had not yet come.  

One of the prerequisites to identify the offspring is that he will "poimeno the Nations of the world with the road of Iron..."

That he will be the Shepherd of people from all the Nations of the world.

And he will do that when first he will...

"He will crush the head of the Serpent" 

And the "seed has to die" 

"Strike in the heal"

This is telling us that God the Shepherd of the Nation of Israel..."the Lord Jehovah only had the authority to "poimeno" the Nation of Israel and not the Nations of the world. 

He said to Pharaoh: Israel is my first born and I want no other. 

The Shepherd of Israel said with these words or he let us know that before being the Jehovah the Shepherd of the Nation of Israel he was not the Jehovah of no other Nation...that Israel is my first born...and I want no other..

At that time God said that he let us know that he had authority only over the Nation of Israel.

And that someone else had authority over all the other Nations of the world...

He also let us know that before he "gave birth to the Nation of Israel" the Serpent had authority over all the Nations of the world...

He also is telling us that the Nation of Israel was never under the authority of the Serpent...because it was a New Nation that God brought in to existence.

And we know how God separated Abraham from the rest of the world and how he had caused the birth of Issac and had chosen Issac from all the other children of Abraham and he appeared to him and repeated to him the promises made to Abraham and later to Jacob the promises he made to Abraham and how he blessed Jacob with a new promise and gave him a new name when he included in the promises made to Abraham all his children and his children childrens and he called him Israel, thus we have the birth of the Nation of Israel and we have the Jehovah of the Nation of Israel the God of the Nation of Israel the Shepherd of the Nation of Israel....that was His Nation which was a New Nation and the Serpent who had authority over all the other Nations of the world HE NEVER AT ANY TIME HAD AUTHORITY OVER THE NATION OF ISRAEL...

The whole world was given to the Serpent beginning with Adam and Eve. 

God did not made a Nation for himself beginning with Noah...he was waiting for Abraham and he set Abraham apart from all the people of the earth to be the Patriarch of his chosen people, his own Nation. 

And that is what happened ABRAHAM to Issac and to Jacob-Israel all his children the twelve Patriarhs of the Nation of Israel...

The Nation of God. 

Till the "seed of the woman" who will defeat the Serpent " "crush his head" and be given the authority to be the Shepherd (Poimeno) of the alĺ the Nations of the world....or will be given the authority to have a Nation from people from all the Nations of the world...

( this could be possible because Jesus with his death on the Cross he cleansed the acrobistia from the world)

And the people in the world were clean from the acrobistia and only in their sins...the same as the Jews at the time of the death of Jesus were found in their sins...as the Law included the Atonements were set aside...

EVERYON in the world was in their sins...both Jews and Gentiles as one people.

Both in the same need to have their sins forgiven in the same way by the blood of Jesus Christ...

The one who will strip the Serpent from his authority to take by default all the people of the world upon death (but not the people of God in the chosen seed of Abraham from Abraham to Jacob-Israel and the twelve Patriarhs the people of God...Israel...in the Cirumcision first and later in the Law of God. 

***He will be the Shepherd of all God's (the Heavenly Father) people...a new Nation by taking people from all the Nations of the world. 

And set the seed of the woman the first born and the Patriarh of the people of the Heavenly Father as their Shepherd...

The Serpent lost his authority to take and keep the people of the world...

now Jesus Christ decides whom the Serpent can have and keep...

all the people from the beginning of the world whom the Serpent had taken as his right to take them and keep and no one could take them from him were set free and put in the valley of decision...

that's the one the Dragon had to fear the one promise to come "the seed of the woman " SINGULAR...

Is the one who has the keys of Death and Hades. 

This can only be Jesus Christ..

 

 

[Vine Abider]

54 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@Feedmysheep

Genesis 3.15 15  And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

** The narrative above points to a single offspring. 

To the offspring that will crush the head of the Serpent and the Serpent will strike his heal....

*we have enough knowledge from the scriptures that as long as the promise about the "offspring" were renewed from the prophets that the "offspring" had not yet come.  

One of the prerequisites to identify the offspring is that he will "poimeno the Nations of the world with the road of Iron..."

That he will be the Shepherd of people from all the Nations of the world.

And he will do that when first he will...

"He will crush the head of the Serpent" 

And the "seed has to die" 

"Strike in the heal"

This is telling us that God the Shepherd of the Nation of Israel..."the Lord Jehovah only had the authority to "poimeno" the Nation of Israel and not the Nations of the world. 

He said to Pharaoh: Israel is my first born and I want no other. 

The Shepherd of Israel said with these words or he let us know that before being the Jehovah the Shepherd of the Nation of Israel he was not the Jehovah of no other Nation...that Israel is my first born...and I want no other..

At that time God said that he let us know that he had authority only over the Nation of Israel.

And that someone else had authority over all the other Nations of the world...

He also let us know that before he "gave birth to the Nation of Israel" the Serpent had authority over all the Nations of the world...

He also is telling us that the Nation of Israel was never under the authority of the Serpent...because it was a New Nation that God brought in to existence.

And we know how God separated Abraham from the rest of the world and how he had caused the birth of Issac and had chosen Issac from all the other children of Abraham and he appeared to him and repeated to him the promises made to Abraham and later to Jacob the promises he made to Abraham and how he blessed Jacob with a new promise and gave him a new name when he included in the promises made to Abraham all his children and his children childrens and he called him Israel, thus we have the birth of the Nation of Israel and we have the Jehovah of the Nation of Israel the God of the Nation of Israel the Shepherd of the Nation of Israel....that was His Nation which was a New Nation and the Serpent who had authority over all the other Nations of the world HE NEVER AT ANY TIME HAD AUTHORITY OVER THE NATION OF ISRAEL...

The whole world was given to the Serpent beginning with Adam and Eve. 

God did not made a Nation for himself beginning with Noah...he was waiting for Abraham and he set Abraham apart from all the people of the earth to be the Patriarch of his chosen people, his own Nation. 

And that is what happened ABRAHAM to Issac and to Jacob-Israel all his children the twelve Patriarhs of the Nation of Israel...

The Nation of God. 

Till the "seed of the woman" who will defeat the Serpent " "crush his head" and be given the authority to be the Shepherd (Poimeno) of the alĺ the Nations of the world....or will be given the authority to have a Nation from people from all the Nations of the world...

( this could be possible because Jesus with his death on the Cross he cleansed the acrobistia from the world)

And the people in the world were clean from the acrobistia and only in their sins...the same as the Jews at the time of the death of Jesus were found in their sins...as the Law included the Atonements were set aside...

EVERYON in the world was in their sins...both Jews and Gentiles as one people.

Both in the same need to have their sins forgiven in the same way by the blood of Jesus Christ...

The one who will strip the Serpent from his authority to take by default all the people of the world upon death (but not the people of God in the chosen seed of Abraham from Abraham to Jacob-Israel and the twelve Patriarhs the people of God...Israel...in the Cirumcision first and later in the Law of God. 

***He will be the Shepherd of all God's (the Heavenly Father) people...a new Nation by taking people from all the Nations of the world. 

And set the seed of the woman the first born and the Patriarh of the people of the Heavenly Father as their Shepherd...

The Serpent lost his authority to take and keep the people of the world...

now Jesus Christ decides whom the Serpent can have and keep...

all the people from the beginning of the world whom the Serpent had taken as his right to take them and keep and no one could take them from him were set free and put in the valley of decision...

that's the one the Dragon had to fear the one promise to come "the seed of the woman " SINGULAR...

Is the one who has the keys of Death and Hades. 

This can only be Jesus Christ..

 

 

However, we are the body of Christ. So if the heel is crushing the serpent's head, who is that?

[Logostician]

I believe that the woman clothed with the sun is Israel, and the twelve stars of her crown are the tribes of Israel.  The child that she gives birth to is the Messiah of Israel, and Savior of the gentiles, Jesus Christ.  He is the King of Kings who will rule all nations.

[Vine Abider]

8 hours ago, Logostician said:

I believe that the woman clothed with the sun is Israel, and the twelve stars of her crown are the tribes of Israel.  The child that she gives birth to is the Messiah of Israel, and Savior of the gentiles, Jesus Christ.  He is the King of Kings who will rule all nations.

Please read the post by Ad Hoc on the second page of this thread.  In it, he gives numerous points as to why this thinking doesn't fit Rev 12.

Once you have considered those points, I'd love to have some dialog with you if you still think that way.

[dad2]

On 4/12/2023 at 3:42 PM, AdHoc said:

For those who claim that the Woman is Israel must explain ...

How Israel was in heaven
How Israel is a "sign in heaven"
How Israel travailed in birth
How Israel is crowned with stars before Jesus is born
How Israel is clothed with the sun
How Israel, God's earthly people, have the moon under its feet
How Israel was driven into the wilderness AFTER Jesus was born
How Israel brought forth seed "that keep the commandments of God"
How Israel has seed that "has the testimony of Jesus Christ"
How Israel is one Woman when they came from four women and were dived into two nations
How Israel is helped by the earth in the wilderness when God supplied her

Some believers were in heaven in John's day. The believers in heavenly places with Him are in glory so they can be seen as being clothed with the sun etc

It will be long after Jesus was born that the tribulation starts and the Jews in Jerusalem area have to flee and will be helped by God as they do so.

Israel has had many believers come from it, such as the apostles and the tribulation saints (new believers from that time) etc

 

 

On 4/12/2023 at 3:42 PM, AdHoc said:

Now, only TWO entities will rule the nations with a rod of iron - EITHER Jesus, OR The Overcomers (Rev.2:27, 19:15). There is not one indication that it is Jesus in Revelation 12. All difficulties disappear if it is the Overcomers.

Only Jesus will rule with a rod of iron and He will do so with us believers.

[Your closest friendnt]

On 4/12/2023 at 11:53 AM, Vine Abider said:

So @Marathoner @Dennis1209 @Selah7 @R. Hartono @Marilyn C let's look at what I stated in the opening post:

1. Believers are also told they will rule the nations with an iron rod (Rev 2:27) - so we can't say this only applies to Jesus, right?

From the scriptures we learned to distinguish Jesus Christ from those who believe in him "the believers", for clarity the believers in him, for clarity those who are in the New Covenant who are having their sins forgiven in the eternal fountain of the Atonic blood of the Lamb of God.  

Colossians 1:15-

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16.For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him

NO SERVANT IS GREATER THAN HIS MASTER

First come Jesus Christ who is the one to POIMENO the Nations with a  rod of Iron...

To whom is given to POIMENO the nations...

The preeminence of Jesus Christ over all things..

the prophetic it was written for him and about him.

Jesus invites some of the believers and deligates then IN HIM, IN HIS NAME to poimeno the nations with him and for him Jesus deligates authority to them...

He dligated authority to Paul while he was still alive...he made him a conqueror he gave him his white horse and sent him to conqueror the Nation of Rome and Greece and the nations of minor Asia...where ever he went and he went in Jesus Christ name and with the Holy Spirit...

Jesus poimeno those Nations through Paul and through the Holy Spirit and HIm self as He will. 

 

 

 

 

Jesus has and had the preeminence in everything...Paul did nothing in his name even though Jesus gave power to Paul and to Peter and to the other disciples...they spoke and things happen...Peter passed and spoke judgment to Annanias and his wife...

did you say "believers"? 

Jesus has the preeminence over every believer...he is the first in everything. 

Can we have the believers without first having the one they believe to? 

Does it not say in scripture that God exaulted Jesus Christ and he gave him the Heavens as his Inheritance that he sitted him on his right on his Throne with him? 

Did God exalted any of the believers? NO HE DID NOT.

Jesus has the preeminence, God made him the Lord over all other Lords...

They are many other Lords in the body of Jesus Christ and Paul said not to ruled over the believers because some of them did.

And we should point that the believers wanted to be Shepherd by men (believers in God) they wanted to be Shepherd by someone they can see, a Pastor, a teacher, a minister a brother...and they start with that and stay in that mode...looking what others has to say and they choose whom they like to cling to the one they adapt to follow..

.But Jesus is over all..he is the Head of the church and over all the others leaders...

The whole truth is found only in him..

Jesus is the one  ...the first and only one whom God appointed to POIMENO all the Nations of the world.

The prophetic scripture in Esaiah 9:6-7 is about him

 

before we have those who have been deligated from the one whom God gave everything...

God only gave to Jesus the POIMENO of the nations and Jesus has that authority and he deligate that authority to others...their portion of their Inheritance,( and it is always Jesus Christ and not God..

God gave everything to Jesus...he has nothing for the believers outside Jesus...everyone has to go to Jesus for everything they need...God gave Jesus Christ to be our Lord and our judge...Jesus died for us and not God...God saved us through Jesus Christ...

Jesus did not stepped away from his Inheritance God gave to him to rule the nations but invites the elect of his believers to poimeno the Nations with him...

First Jesus and without Jesus we have none. 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

From the scriptures we learned to distinguish Jesus Christ from those who believe in him "the believers", for clarity the believers in him, for clarity those who are in the New Covenant who are having their sins forgiven in the eternal fountain of the Atonic blood of the Lamb of God.  

Colossians 1:15-

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16.For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him

NO SERVANT IS GREATER THAN HIS MASTER

First come Jesus Christ who is the one to POIMENO the Nations with a  rod of Iron...

To whom is given to POIMENO the nations...

The preeminence of Jesus Christ over all things..

the prophetic it was written for him and about him.

Jesus invites some of the believers and deligates then IN HIM, IN HIS NAME to poimeno the nations with him and for him Jesus deligates authority to them...

He dligated authority to Paul while he was still alive...he made him a conqueror he gave him his white horse and sent him to conqueror the Nation of Rome and Greece and the nations of minor Asia...where ever he went and he went in Jesus Christ name and with the Holy Spirit...

Jesus poimeno those Nations through Paul and through the Holy Spirit and HIm self as He will. 

 

 

 

 

Jesus has and had the preeminence in everything...Paul did nothing in his name even though Jesus gave power to Paul and to Peter and to the other disciples...they spoke and things happen...Peter passed and spoke judgment to Annanias and his wife...

did you say "believers"? 

Jesus has the preeminence over every believer...he is the first in everything. 

Can we have the believers without first having the one they believe to? 

Does it not say in scripture that God exaulted Jesus Christ and he gave him the Heavens as his Inheritance that he sitted him on his right on his Throne with him? 

Did God exalted any of the believers? NO HE DID NOT.

Jesus has the preeminence, God made him the Lord over all other Lords...

They are many other Lords in the body of Jesus Christ and Paul said not to ruled over the believers because some of them did.

And we should point that the believers wanted to be Shepherd by men (believers in God) they wanted to be Shepherd by someone they can see, a Pastor, a teacher, a minister a brother...and they start with that and stay in that mode...looking what others has to say and they choose whom they like to cling to the one they adapt to follow..

.But Jesus is over all..he is the Head of the church and over all the others leaders...

The whole truth is found only in him..

Jesus is the one  ...the first and only one whom God appointed to POIMENO all the Nations of the world.

The prophetic scripture in Esaiah 9:6-7 is about him

 

before we have those who have been deligated from the one whom God gave everything...

God only gave to Jesus the POIMENO of the nations and Jesus has that authority and he deligate that authority to others...their portion of their Inheritance,( and it is always Jesus Christ and not God..

God gave everything to Jesus...he has nothing for the believers outside Jesus...everyone has to go to Jesus for everything they need...God gave Jesus Christ to be our Lord and our judge...Jesus died for us and not God...God saved us through Jesus Christ...

Jesus did not stepped away from his Inheritance God gave to him to rule the nations but invites the elect of his believers to poimeno the Nations with him...

First Jesus and without Jesus we have none. 

You make good points about the preeminence of Christ, and I don't disagree regarding His preeminence, but I see the man child in Rev 12 differently . . . that is, it is Christ, but a further progression/manifestation of Christ IN His believers.  That is the new covenant: Christ in you-all, the hope of glory. He shares His glory with us, as He stated in John 17:22, "The glory you have given Me I have given to them." This is a BIG deal - it's who He is making us in Him!

23 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@Feedmysheep

Genesis 3.15 15  And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

** The narrative above points to a single offspring. 

To the offspring that will crush the head of the Serpent and the Serpent will strike his heal....

*we have enough knowledge from the scriptures that as long as the promise about the "offspring" were renewed from the prophets that the "offspring" had not yet come.  

One of the prerequisites to identify the offspring is that he will "poimeno the Nations of the world with the road of Iron..."

That he will be the Shepherd of people from all the Nations of the world.

And he will do that when first he will...

"He will crush the head of the Serpent" 

And the "seed has to die" 

"Strike in the heal"

This is telling us that God the Shepherd of the Nation of Israel..."the Lord Jehovah only had the authority to "poimeno" the Nation of Israel and not the Nations of the world. 

He said to Pharaoh: Israel is my first born and I want no other. 

The Shepherd of Israel said with these words or he let us know that before being the Jehovah the Shepherd of the Nation of Israel he was not the Jehovah of no other Nation...that Israel is my first born...and I want no other..

At that time God said that he let us know that he had authority only over the Nation of Israel.

And that someone else had authority over all the other Nations of the world...

He also let us know that before he "gave birth to the Nation of Israel" the Serpent had authority over all the Nations of the world...

He also is telling us that the Nation of Israel was never under the authority of the Serpent...because it was a New Nation that God brought in to existence.

And we know how God separated Abraham from the rest of the world and how he had caused the birth of Issac and had chosen Issac from all the other children of Abraham and he appeared to him and repeated to him the promises made to Abraham and later to Jacob the promises he made to Abraham and how he blessed Jacob with a new promise and gave him a new name when he included in the promises made to Abraham all his children and his children childrens and he called him Israel, thus we have the birth of the Nation of Israel and we have the Jehovah of the Nation of Israel the God of the Nation of Israel the Shepherd of the Nation of Israel....that was His Nation which was a New Nation and the Serpent who had authority over all the other Nations of the world HE NEVER AT ANY TIME HAD AUTHORITY OVER THE NATION OF ISRAEL...

The whole world was given to the Serpent beginning with Adam and Eve. 

God did not made a Nation for himself beginning with Noah...he was waiting for Abraham and he set Abraham apart from all the people of the earth to be the Patriarch of his chosen people, his own Nation. 

And that is what happened ABRAHAM to Issac and to Jacob-Israel all his children the twelve Patriarhs of the Nation of Israel...

The Nation of God. 

Till the "seed of the woman" who will defeat the Serpent " "crush his head" and be given the authority to be the Shepherd (Poimeno) of the alĺ the Nations of the world....or will be given the authority to have a Nation from people from all the Nations of the world...

( this could be possible because Jesus with his death on the Cross he cleansed the acrobistia from the world)

And the people in the world were clean from the acrobistia and only in their sins...the same as the Jews at the time of the death of Jesus were found in their sins...as the Law included the Atonements were set aside...

EVERYON in the world was in their sins...both Jews and Gentiles as one people.

Both in the same need to have their sins forgiven in the same way by the blood of Jesus Christ...

The one who will strip the Serpent from his authority to take by default all the people of the world upon death (but not the people of God in the chosen seed of Abraham from Abraham to Jacob-Israel and the twelve Patriarhs the people of God...Israel...in the Cirumcision first and later in the Law of God. 

***He will be the Shepherd of all God's (the Heavenly Father) people...a new Nation by taking people from all the Nations of the world. 

And set the seed of the woman the first born and the Patriarh of the people of the Heavenly Father as their Shepherd...

The Serpent lost his authority to take and keep the people of the world...

now Jesus Christ decides whom the Serpent can have and keep...

all the people from the beginning of the world whom the Serpent had taken as his right to take them and keep and no one could take them from him were set free and put in the valley of decision...

that's the one the Dragon had to fear the one promise to come "the seed of the woman " SINGULAR...

Is the one who has the keys of Death and Hades. 

This can only be Jesus Christ..

 

 

To your point in the Genesis 3:15 verse above I asked:

22 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

However, we are the body of Christ. So if the heel is crushing the serpent's head, who is that?

What is your answer to that? (try to keep it brief please)