Who are they?

[Keras]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Incorrect. The KJV is the exception; all other versions (15 of 16 English versions in BLB, KJV only excepted) have "the great tribulation." In the Greek, it is "τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, = the tribulation the great = the great tribulation." Both Textus Receptus and other versions.

You may be thinking of Matthew 24, which does not have the "the".

But to make that Great Tribulation, of Revelation 7:14, to be all of the Trumpets and Bowls, is to shuffle Revelation and causes confusion. 

As Revelation 7 is immediately after the Great and terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal; and before the Seventh Seal, Rev 8:1, then that worldwide disaster is what Rev 7:14 refers to, unless otherwise stated in scripture.

We all must pass through this test of our faith, must prove our trust in the Lord to protect us. 1 Peter 4:12  Those who do that will receive robes of righteousness and will be His priests and co-rulers on earth. Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:21

[Revelation Man]

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Incorrect. The KJV is the exception; all other versions (15 of 16 English versions in BLB, KJV only excepted) have "the great tribulation." In the Greek, it is "τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, = the tribulation the great = the great tribulation." Both Textus Receptus and other versions.

You may be thinking of Matthew 24, which does not have the "the".

So, which was first, the 1611 KJV or the others you have decided to heed on this? The KJV doesn't have "THE", and manuscripts do not use it at all, in that manner. Just like 2 Thess. 2:1-3 where a Definite Article is indeed used, to point unto a Gathering unto Jesus. In that blog I named the first 7 English Bibles that preceded the KJV and stated that the KJV used a Falling Away instead of a Departure [of the Church who is GATHERD unto Jesus] so they could take a swipe at the RCC, silly looking back, but both the RCC and Church of England's Hierarchy were evil, so that did not surprise me in the least.

But these are the first Seven English translations

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

 

Wycliffe Bible = Rev. 7:14 And I said to him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These be they, that came from great tribulation, and washed their stoles, and made them white in the blood of the lamb.

Tyndale Bible = Rev. 7:14 And I sayde vnto him: lorde thou wottest. And he sayde vnto me: these are they which cam oute of gret tribulacion and made their garmetes large and made them whyte in the bloud of the lambe:

Coverdale Bible = Rev. 7:14 And I sayde vnto him: LORDE thou wotest. And he sayde vnto me: these are they which cam out of gret tribulacion, and made their garmentes large, and made the whyte in the bloude of the lambe:

The Carmer Bible becomes the Great Bible below (1539 and 1540)

The Great Bible = Rev. 7:14 And I sayde vnto him: Lord thou wotest. And he sayde to me: these are they, whych came out of great tribulacyon, & made their garmentes large, & made them white by the bloude of the lambe:

The Beeches Bible could not be obtained/found online. 

The Geneva Bible = Rev. 7:14 And I said unto him, Lord, thou knowest. And he said unto me, [n]These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their long robes, and have made their long robes white in the blood of the Lamb.

The KJV = Rev. 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

ALSO........................

International Standard Version = Rev. 7:14 And I said unto him, Lord, thou knowest. And he said unto me, [n]These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their long robes, and have made their long robes white in the blood of the Lamb.

Jubilee Bible (2000) = Rev. 7:14 And I said unto him, lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are those who came out of great tribulation and have washed their long robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The AKJV = Rev. 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

J.B. Phillips New Testament = Rev. 7:14 told me, “These are those who have come through the great oppression: they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

So, all of the earliest English Translations say great tribulation, I study the Greek manuscripts, it is not THE GREAT TRIBULATION, it is clearly Great Tribulation. When things we believed get busted up, we should be happy instead of sad, I don't understand the desperate push back when truths are revealed. We men are fallible creatures, I believed the same untruth for 30 years, don't sweat it. The problem for a lot of mid and post trib guys is this kind of dusts them off, finishes their understandings of the Rapture. Hence if no one from the 70th week can get Raptured these seen in Rev. 7:9-17 have to have been the Pre Trib Raptured Saints, as seen in heaven, after the Rapture (Rev. 4:1) but before the Wrath of God starts (Rev. 8 brings God's Wrath). 

Tribulation the Great is not the same as THE Great Tribulation. Tribulation can be great without it being the Greatest Ever Tribulations. All one has to do is simply read the 5th Seal passage and Rev. 20:4 no one is raptured during the 70th week tribulation period, PERIOD.  They are told they must wait until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they have before they will get vengeance, then they are given a white robe and told to wait a little season  (42 months of the Beasts rule). In Rev. 20:4 we see when those who died during the 70th week all get judged, AFTER Jesus second coming. Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are Pre Trib Raptured Saints. The Church indeed came out of Great Tribulation. We see the Rapture in Revelation 4:1 Jesus blows the Last Trump, which ends the Harvest (Church Age) . Amen.

Here is how I figured out a way to understand the hard truths, it is like a puzzle, if something doesn't quite fit, look at it again and quit ASSUMING what we always heard was correct. Most of the time it is just men's Traditions, like the 144,000 Super Preachers, which throw us off kilter.

You see, I did not just change my opinion via one small word being added, I saw that Jesus in John 16:33 stated that ALL TIME on this earth is tribulation, and I also understood that the 2000 some odd year Church Age is GREATER than the 7 year (70th week) but alas the bible never says these men came out of the Greatest Ever Troubles, it simply says they came out of Great Tribulation, in general, or the Church Age tribulation. The 5th Seals specifically says they MUST WAIT, Rev. 20:4 proves they DO WAIT and only get resurrected and Judged after the 2nd coming. We see the Church in Heaven before the Seals are ever opened in Rev. 4:4 and 5:9-10. BUT....The Wrath of God doesn't even fall until Rev. 8 anyway, the Seals do nothing, they are only prophetic in nature. So, we see the Raptured Church in Heaven BEFORE the Greatest Troubles even start in Rev. 8 anyway.

God Bless

Edited April 17, 2023 by Revelation Man

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, all of the earliest English Translations say great tribulation, I study the Greek manuscripts, it is not THE GREAT TRIBULATION, it is clearly Great Tribulation.

So you say, but without directly citing any actual Greek manuscript at all. English versions cannot ever be used as original sources, as you seem to suggest, only Greek ones.

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, Keras said:

But to make that Great Tribulation, of Revelation 7:14, to be all of the Trumpets and Bowls, is to shuffle Revelation and causes confusion. 

True.

11 hours ago, Keras said:

As Revelation 7 is immediately after the Great and terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal; and before the Seventh Seal, Rev 8:1, then that worldwide disaster is what Rev 7:14 refers to, unless otherwise stated in scripture.

Rev. 7 was John's vision of the results of the 6th seal with respect to God's people, both Israel (7:1-8) and the Church (7:9-17).

[Revelation Man]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

So you say, but without directly citing any actual Greek manuscript at all. English versions cannot ever be used as original sources, as you seem to suggest, only Greek ones.

You totally miss it, I do not place all of my UDERSTANDING of ANYTHING, on one word. It could say THE GREAT TRIBULATION it it still could not mean the Greatest Tribulation Ever (God's Wrath) because no one gets Raptured during the 70th week, but alas it doesn't say The Great Tribulation, and if it did it would simply be talking about THE Church Age Tribulation, not THE Greatest Ever Troubles. 

The 5th Seal is taken in to account by me, you chose to ignore it, it specifically says all of those Martyrs (70th week Martyrs) MUST WAIT (Dodging this reality does not make it just GO AWAY my friend) for a little season, until ALL OF THEIR BROTHERS have been killed in LIKE MANNER, now we both know what this means, all of their 70th week brothers must be killed before they get their vengeance, BUT HOW ? Via Jesus' Second Coming of course. So, does Rev. 20:4 support this idea? Yes, but again you choose to ignore these factoids, which I factor into the whole process, in other words you believe in what you think, in spite of the facts, I look at all of the facts and come to my belief. Rev. 20:4 PROVES 100 % that those who die as Martyrs during the 70th week only get raised and judged AFTER the 2nd Coming, so both confirm my understanding, NO ONE from the 70th week gets Raptured to Heaven, but this proves a Pre Trib Rapture so its not a convenient truth for many.

So, basically you base everything on a THE, anyone who bases any foundational understanding on "the's" and other prefixes are just asking to be led down cul-de-sacs brother. Like I stated, I did not come up with my understanding by simply I figuring out there was no THE in the verse, I came my understanding by following all the scriptures associated to it's ultimate destination, there can be no 70th week raptures, Jesus says so in Seal #5, and Rev. 20:4 PROVES THIS, thus they can only come out of the Church Age TRIBULATION, there is no debating the holy word when it is this specific. BUT ALAS, one must keep the mid and post triB theories alive, I guess, I don't know why tbh.

I offer scriptures and push back, you just say oh well, I believe this so it must be. You know that is not the way brother. The translations are full of errors and the true translation from Hebrew or Greek can still leave people scratching their heads at times, which is why God says this..........Here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept, God doesn't want us to be single scripture types at all, those types take ONE VERSE and create in some cases new religions. To avoid this we must use MANY PASSAGES in order to get to the overall truths of God, because the Holy Spirit wrote the bible, so reading many verses about one issue, will lead one to a correct answer in the long run. Sometimes just reading 2 verses so diabolically opposed to each other lends us to the idea SOMETHING AIN'T RIGHT HERE !!

Like Dan. 7:11 where it states the Beasts BODY is DESTROYED and he is cast into hell (DEAD RIGHT? Yes)

Then we get Rev. 20:19 which states the Beast and F.P. are cast ALIVE into Hellfire. (Alive right? WRONG)

You, see, God can not lie, so we either have a mistranslation, or a misunderstanding, God is never contradicting Himself, God is perfect (SMILE we agree ). So, these kind of verses is what I love, it drives me unto all truth, I simply ask the holy spirit to reveal unto me THE TRUTH (which is his job anyway). And I never stop until I get that truth. So, could the Anti-Christ still be alive when he is cast into hell? No, all scriptures tell us men must all die and be judged, save those alive at the rapture, which will not include the Beast/A.C. So, why does Rev. 20:19 says he is cast alive into hell, did John fib, did the transcript get changed or mistranslated? No, the truth is our spirits are immortal souls, we all SLEEP/Rest as Dan. 12:1-2 and 1 Cor. 15:48-52 says, until God raptures us home as Christians OR until the 2nd Resurrection of Death which comes 1000 years after the 2nd coming. But in this one case, as soon as the F.P. and Beast die, they are NOT ALLOWED to rest/sleep in the grave, they are taken ALIVE as in their spirits are always alive, and they are JUDGED by God immediately and cast straight into hellfire. THIS FITS, but you know what, someone will pipe in WE DON'T SLEEP, well then why are we Resurrected at the very end then if we are already in Heaven? What are the Wicked doing until the 2nd Resurrection? SLEEPING/Resting, of course, until Judgment comes. Paul says we shall not ALL SLEEP(meaning we sleep, lol), Daniel says the Jewish people will all get raised at the VERY END. No one goes to heaven (save Elijah & Moses) until the Rapture, which is pre 70th week. No one gets Raptured after the 70th week starts, until it ends (Rev. 20:4).

These facts as per the Raptures timing can not be overcome because they are TRUTH brother. Amen.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Revelation Man

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

These facts as per the Raptures timing can not be overcome because they are TRUTH brother

 

What a self-aggrandizing ramble, so full of presumptions that I wouldn't even know where to start. Bye.

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

What a self-aggrandizing ramble, so full of presumptions that I wouldn't even know where to start. Bye.

I notice your best dodge is aways just to avoid a reply. You can't overcome those facts so its just easier to tag someone with a name. You know why you cant overcome those facts? Because they are truths from God. 

God Bless, be well. 

[WilliamL]

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You know why you cant overcome those facts? Because they are truths from God. 

Another self-proclaimed revelator of God. Join the cue.

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Another self-proclaimed revelator of God. Join the cue.

Give it a rest man, you can't make an argument so you you low-rate the conversation to name calling, SMH. 

[Jaydub]

On 4/12/2023 at 5:06 PM, Mystic_Pizza said:

1. Are those who are standing before the throne with palm branches those who have been raptured?

I believe they are all believers,, old testament saints new testament saints, its Abrahams promise

Gen 15:5

He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be

A number that can't be counted, this is a picture of all God people worshipping him around the throne