What Do People See That Causes Them To Wonder?

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work...

I'd suggest that the mystery of iniquity is the effect of Satan's kingdom on the human race (Babylon).  We know that it happens, but we don't know how.

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I see Satan, the beast, and the false prophet as three separate distinct entities who work together to deceive the world into worshiping the man of sin.

GOD ALMIGHTY... Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  ALL ONE, all different.  


"Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me." Isaiah 45:21 KJV

"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." Luke 2:11 KJV

"Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31 KJV

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." 1 Corinthians 15:28 KJV

Until you can reckon 'The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, The Lord God, Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ ect', it is going to be hard to follow 

the antithesis 



But, I think it helps to see  the beast, false prophet, and the devil as All one yet ALL different, the names/titles describing a FUNCTION, an office like President, senator, representative, captain, ect, or the Character of it. 

No man has multiple heads.  No man ascends out of the sea.  No man has a 'deadly wound' and lives on.  No man WAS, is not, and yet is...so THE BEAST is not a man,

it is a 'kingdom/nation/government/ruling class' ect under the POWER of one who is  'large and in charge', the prince of the power of the air, Satan.

Kings and kingdoms and powers come to rule the earth. 

WHEN CHRIST RETURN, WHAT HAPPENS?

REV 19

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.


These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 

SO NEITHER OF THEM can be 'the beast that ascends' out of the bottomless pit

 saying it again, just in case,
the beast and the false prophet GO INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. 

THERE IS NO ASCENDING out of that. And we can be sure they stayed right there because

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

AS FOR Satan
 Rev 20
 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

So, there is ONLY ONE WHO ASCENDS OUT OF THE ABYSS.  


And one who deceives the world  is
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


 'THE BEASTS system' (all those a part of 'ruling' it??) is cast into the lake of fire, so THE BEAST that ascendeth, is NONE OTHER than the one cast in.  



This next verse isn't setting 'A TIME', it is NAMING the party ultimately responsible for the killing of the witnesses...

"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." Revelation 11:7 KJV






"And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon." Revelation 9:11 KJV

 3. Abaddón ►
Strong's Concordance
Abaddón: Abaddon, the angel of the abyss
Original Word: Ἀβαδδών, ὁ
Part of Speech: Proper Noun, Indeclinable
Transliteration: Abaddón
Phonetic Spelling: (ab-ad-dohn')
Definition: Abaddon, the angel of the abyss
Usage: Abaddon, Destroyer (i.e. Destroying Angel) or place of destruction (personified).

1. ruin, destruction (from אָבַד to perish), Job 31:12.

2. the place of destruction equivalent to Orcus, joined with שְׁאול, Job 26:6; Proverbs 15:11.

3. as a proper name it is given to the angel-prince of the infernal regions, the minister of death and author of havoc on earth, and is rendered in Greek by Ἀπολλύων Destroyer, Revelation 11:11.

623. Apolluón ►
Strong's Concordance
Apolluón: "a destroyer," Apollyon, the angel of the abyss
Original Word: Ἀπολλύων, ονος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Apolluón
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol-loo'-ohn)
Definition: "a destroyer", Apollyon, the angel of the abyss
Usage: Apollyon, The Destroying One, a Greek translation of the Hebrew: Abaddon.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 623 Apollýōn (from 622 /apóllymi, "cause to perish, be ruined") – properly, "the destroyer" (from the Abyss), i.e. Satan (used only in Rev 9:11).



"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." Revelation 20:3 KJV


Just saying, that is how I see it...



 

Edited June 12, 2023 by DeighAnn

[DeighAnn]

12 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I'd suggest that the mystery of iniquity is the effect of Satan's kingdom on the human race (Babylon).  We know that it happens, but we don't know how.

I agree, it is his evil influence upon those of the world,

while looking for those whom he might just be able to snare and take, if they don't keep watch and stay under the protective wing of God

That has not been bound and has been running free all this time...

I don't think we have a clue as to how 'oppressive' this world/age is to us, evil all around all the time

I can't hardly wait to see and feel the difference in the beginning days of the Lords Day.  What a relief that is going to be, well, once we get past the 'transition period' anyhow

[Diaste]

On 6/12/2023 at 11:30 AM, WilliamL said:

The four worlds are simply the three heavens mentioned by Paul plus this earthly realm. Nothing earth-shaking about this doctrine. Kabbalism merely provides more information about the three heavens.

Perhaps. It's not authoritative in any case. It's Hebrew mysticism, Torah based, tradition of men. So at best it's a gilded path, not a profound spiritual journey.

On 6/12/2023 at 11:30 AM, WilliamL said:

A presumptive translation. Literally, "and they [3rd person plural verb] are seven kings." No 'also' in the Greek. Meaning that the 7 mountains are the seven kings and the seven heads. Depends upon the spiritual and natural perspectives by which they are being perceived.

'Kai' appears in the Greek text. It appears like 9000 times in the NT. 

2532 kaí (the most common NT conjunction, used over 9,000 times) – and (also), very often, moreover, even, indeed (the context determines the exact sense).

 

"και  conjunction
kai  kahee:  and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words"

So, Rev 17:10 reads, in our modern vernacular, "In addition, there are 7 kings..." So no, in no way does this prove the 7 kings ARE the 7 mountains, they are an addition. 

 

On 6/12/2023 at 11:30 AM, WilliamL said:

Daniel says nothing about the little horn being a beast, far from it: it is only an appendage on the head of the Daniel's 4th beast.

It's interesting to me you seem to miss the relationship between the various forms in which the same entity is presented throughout scripture. For instance, Jesus is the son of a carpenter and at the same time the Son of God. Same person, various attributes. For example, this is still Jesus:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His

eyes were as a flame of fire,

and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was 

clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and

his name is called The Word of God."

Jesus is called: Wonderful, Counselor, Prince of Peace, The Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, King of Kings, etc. all the same person. 

It's the same with the beast, he's the little horn, the man of sin, the willful king, the beast, the 8th king, etc.

On 6/12/2023 at 11:30 AM, WilliamL said:

The Beast of Revelation 11, 13, 17 "will ascend out of the Abyss," wherein no man has ever been.

Yes. this is the dark demon that inhabits this person; "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

But, and I really appreciate this, if the beast is this: " was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit," and the beast is a man, then at least one man was in the bottomless pit, or abyss[they are the same thing].

But, if no man has ever been in the bottomless pit/abyss then the beast is not a man.

But, if the beast is not a man, then the 7 kings, of which the beast is the 8th, are not human flesh but fallen angels. 

Ergo, the 7 kings are not earthly kings at all and we have all been looking in the wrong direction. 

 Kai, "Wherein no man has ever been." needs to be backed up with evidence. Simply relying on the absence of a statement like, "At some point a man was in the abyss." is not evidence man has not ever been there.

On 6/12/2023 at 11:30 AM, WilliamL said:

Scripture and Enoch tell us that the Abyss is the place the fallen angels were cast, not any man.

If the text doesn't specifically preclude man from the abyss then the conclusion is inaccurate. Because it is a place where fallen angels are, it does not follow no other form of life or entity has never been there. 

Unless of course you know of evidence that says the only beings ever in the abyss, throughout all time, from the time the abyss was created, has only ever been fallen angels and no other being, that is. 

 

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 6/17/2023 at 5:18 AM, Diaste said:

'Kai' appears in the Greek text. ...So, Rev 17:10 reads, in our modern vernacular, "In addition, there are 7 kings..." So no, in no way does this prove the 7 kings ARE the 7 mountains, they are an addition.

You missed the point. The issue is not the "and," it is the translation of the plural verb eisin as "there are." "They [plural] are" is the correct translation.

On 6/17/2023 at 5:18 AM, Diaste said:

But, if no man has ever been in the bottomless pit/abyss then the beast is not a man.

But, if the beast is not a man, then the 7 kings, of which the beast is the 8th, are not human flesh but fallen angels. 

They are lesser spirits than the Beast, being his spiritual descendants of the post-flood era. Remember, they are only heads (i.e appendages) of him.

On 6/17/2023 at 5:18 AM, Diaste said:

It's the same with the beast, he's the little horn, the man of sin, the willful king, the beast, the 8th king, etc.

In your dreams... 🌚

On 6/17/2023 at 5:18 AM, Diaste said:

If the text doesn't specifically preclude man from the abyss then the conclusion is inaccurate. Because it is a place where fallen angels are, it does not follow no other form of life or entity has never been there. 

You have it backwards. Enoch, backed up by Peter, Jude, and Rev. 9 all together testify that the Abyss was made for the fallen angels, then sealed. So it your responsibility to provide evidence that men somehow got put there afterwards.

[Diaste]

On 6/19/2023 at 7:28 AM, WilliamL said:

You missed the point. The issue is not the "and," it is the translation of the plural verb eisin as "there are." "They [plural] are" is the correct translation.

That's moving the goal posts. However, I'm not afraid of a longer attempt. 

"They" are or "there" are makes no difference to the understanding. The crucial part is 'εἰσιν', which is exist. So whether the text is hammered into the minutiae of 'they' or 'there' in order to sidestep the concept has no bearing on what is being related.

It's either 'they exist' or 'there exists' and in either case it's 'in addition to' and the 7 kings are not the interpretation of the 7 mountains.

The angel is telling John; "In addition to the interpretation of the 7 heads as 7 mountains, 7 kings exist." 

There are a few Greek words for 'there' and none appear in in Rev 17:10. The idea of 'they' denotes a group but does not tie it to anything else. Going with your take it's still just 'exist', not an interpretation of 7 heads.

On 6/19/2023 at 7:28 AM, WilliamL said:

They are lesser spirits than the Beast, being his spiritual descendants of the post-flood era. Remember, they are only heads (i.e appendages) of him.

Oy! That was no the point at all.

On 6/19/2023 at 7:28 AM, WilliamL said:

In your dreams... 🌚

Believers in Jesus Christ are called beloved, friends, elect, saints, the congregation, etc., are all of those distinct groups? No.

Jesus is called by several different titles. Is each title a distinct Jesus so we then have many Jesus', each different than the other?

The several appellations are traits, characteristics, or attributes of the same person or group and they do not signal another distinct group or individual.

The beast is called by many names in the same way. You'll see.

On 6/19/2023 at 7:28 AM, WilliamL said:

You have it backwards. Enoch, backed up by Peter, Jude, and Rev. 9 all together testify that the Abyss was made for the fallen angels, then sealed. So it your responsibility to provide evidence that men somehow got put there afterwards.

It was a logical point. If the text, somewhere, anywhere, specifically forbids a man from being in the abyss, then fine. If that prohibition is not written somewhere in the compendium then it's gap filling to say, "No man has ever been in the abyss."

I suppose you would say the pit, hades, sheol, and the abyss are all distinct regions in any case. Maybe they are. I don't know that.

I do know Jesus said this: 

"Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. "

...specifying eternal fire is what was made for the devil and his angels, people are definitely thrown into that. So if, as you say, it's the abyss that's what was made for the devil and his angels, then the eternal fire is the abyss.

But you are mistaken about the fallen angels. Jude doesn't say they were in the abyss. Referencing Rev 9 here is a long stretch. Rev 20 says Satan was bound and thrown in the abyss. But I don't see Enoch say the watchers were thrown in the abyss, but rather chained in darkness in the earth in a place east of Jerusalem. 

 

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's either 'they exist' or 'there exists' and in either case it's 'in addition to' and the 7 kings are not the interpretation of the 7 mountains.

Wrong: "they" refers back to the antecedent "mountains," whereas "there" does not.

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

So if, as you say, it's the abyss that's what was made for the devil and his angels, then the eternal fire is the abyss.

But I did NOT say anything about the Abyss being made for the devil, because it wasn't! The Abyss is not the lake of fire.

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

But you are mistaken about the fallen angels. Jude doesn't say they were in the abyss. Referencing Rev 9 here is a long stretch. Rev 20 says Satan was bound and thrown in the abyss. But I don't see Enoch say the watchers were thrown in the abyss, but rather chained in darkness in the earth in a place east of Jerusalem. 

Rev. 9 directly speaks of "the Abyss," so not a stretch at all. Enoch says nothing about it being east of Jerusalem, which did not exist in his days. Enoch doesn't use the word Abyss, neither does Jude, but they both describe the place in unmistakable terms. Peter used the Greek term Tartarus for it.