Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth

[Arial]

15 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Ephesians 4:30 warns believers not to grieve the Holy Spirit and so I believe He has groanings which He would utter if He could just as He would speak His intercessions which He cannot.  He has intercessions and so He has groanings but unable to utter them.

ESV with groanings that cannot be expressed in words

NASB groanings too deep for words

KJV groanings that cannot be uttered.

We see the Holy Spirit speaking throughout the Bible, why here do you take the KJV to mean that when He intercedes for us in prayer He is forbidden to speak? That He would if He could but He cannot? And why on earth do your think that it is the wording in other translations that is the cause of charismatics coming up with a private prayer language they don't understand so they say when they do it it is the Holy Spirit? They would think that is what this passage is saying no matter what translation they were using. They do so because they are not accurately handling the word of truth (incorrectly translated dividing the word of truth in the KJV which could be a clerical error. As the truth cannot be divided.)

But neither are you accurately handling that word of truth. You are dividing translations.

 

 

 

[Arial]

15 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Luke 17:26-37 KJV VS ESV

Check the Greek word "sunago" for gathering in verse 37 and you will find it as taken with hospitality in receiving.  The Greek word "aetos" gives winglike flight and not just eagles.

That verse is another example for how the KJV is not perfect because it does not translate fully in English from the Greek words, but how they got vultures and corpses in the ESV seems like they were reading not from the Greek words at all.

 

Again you are dividing translations rather than bothering to accurately handle the word of God. The question is not whether or not bodies can be called corpses or vultures be called eagles. The question is "What is Jesus saying and why?"

[Arial]

16 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Well, when reading plainly, tongue speakers can infer that the Holy Spirit does make sounds as He gives groanings too deep for words because it is plainly written in the ESV whereas the KJV testifies that He cannot even utter His own groanings

Still uttering the groanings. It simply means that it is beyond words we know, and probably at times for needs we do not even know we have. That in itself, however it is translated is enough for charismatics to latch on to unintelligible language coming from them as being the Holy Spirit's groanings, and that private prayer language of the Spirit.

The truth of the matter is, that passage is about the Holy Spirit interceding for us in prayer when we do not even know what to pray. And always according to the will of the Father who knows both the mind of the Spirit and us. It is something the Holy Spirit who indwells us does. Nothing more, nothing less. 

16 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

A grammatical error is in the ESV as it switched out the "he" with "the Spirit" at the end of verse 27.  How can the "he" which is separate from us in searching our hearts and separate from the Spirit in knowing the mind of the Spirit... be "the Spirit"?

 

16 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

And He who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

It is the Spirit who is interceding for us. Therefore it is correct. Otherwise it would read, "He (God) who searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit because He (God) intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." What it means is that the Father and the Holy Spirit are in unity completely and therefore the Holy Spirit knows what is the will of God. They know each other and communicate in agreement. The Holy Spirit knows what the will of God is and intercedes for the person accordingly and the Father hears Him.

 

16 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

That "he" is Jesus Christ in searching our hearts per Hebrews 4:12-16 and so it is Jesus Christ that knows the mind of the Spirit to give His silent intercessions to the Father just as Jesus gives our yet unspoken prayers to the father that the Father knows before we even ask in prayer.

If it meant Jesus it would say Jesus. The Holy Spirit here is interceding in prayer. Jesus intercedes as our substitute that reconciles us to God. The High Priest who cleanses us through faith in the sacrifice of His body and the shedding of His blood. They are One in purpose and intent and accomplishment, but they are not all doing the same aspect of salvation and the sealing and sanctification of the saints.

 

16 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

So the Holy Spirit is not making direct intercessions for us but indirectly for why "itself" was used as His silent intercessions are known by Jesus knowing the mind of the Spirit to give His silent intercessions to the Father.

So they are not really saying the same thing as KJV keeps in line with why Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men because He alone has to present all intercessions to the Father so when the Father agrees with any of those intercessions, the Son answers the prayer so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers;  John 14:13-14

You are conflating two things that are all part of the whole but distinct within it. One is about prayer. The other is about propitiation. One is about reconciling, the other is about prayer after the reconciliation. 

 

16 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

But they do use Romans 8:26-27 NIV and the ESV and others as proof text that the Holy Spirit does make intercessions directly Himself and utter sounds that are too deep for words to express.

The Spirit does make direct intercession for us in prayer. The Bible plainly says so no matter what translation you use. Just not in the way tongue speakers say.

 

16 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

And I agree with you that even when reading the KJV, they do not see it as saying anything different from how they read the NIV or the ESV or others, but I suspect it is because they read what they have read from other Bible versions into the KJV.

It is because they read into the Bible what they want to be there instead of accurately handling the word of God. For example they do not bother to discover what purpose the sign gifts served in the early church, they no not notice that they disappeared from within the epistles even, or that this tongue thing coming into the modern church is a very recent thing and that its origins are very suspect. As well, they fail to pay attention to the words of the Bible warning against adding to it or taking away from it, and therefore it is closed. Cornerstone and foundation laid as to anything new. They are constantly, though I believe largely unwittingly and unknowingly, adding prophecy, declaring new works of the Holy Spirit--all as though what we have been given is not enough. And all this because they fail to accurately discern the word of God. They leave too much of it out.

 

16 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

do not know if both sides do not want to believe that there are wrong Bible versions out there thus fulfilling the prophetic warning that there will be those that do not love Jesus to keep His words nor the words of His disciples. John 14:23-24; John 15:20  Maybe it will take help from the Lord to accept the truth of that reality

Though you say both sides, do your really mean that your side is indisputable? Bottom line is I trust God to keep His truths in the word, whatever translation (outside of those put forth by cults and that take the authority of the RCC as surpassing the authority of scripture). We are each responsible for outrown misunderstandings and neglect if we interpret savational scriptures in a way that changes truth. It is not the translation variations that are responsible for that. So far you have shown me no truth that has changed from interpretation to interpretation. You have only shown me peoples misinterpretations (including yours when it comes to the text in question) and trivial matters (corpses or bodies, eagles or vultures).

Fortunately it is an issue of argument, not an issue of salvation.

[ChristB4us]

2 hours ago, Arial said:

ESV with groanings that cannot be expressed in words

NASB groanings too deep for words

KJV groanings that cannot be uttered.

ESV with groanings that cannot be expressed in words & NASB groanings too deep for words are testifying in falsehood of sounds of groanings being uttered by the Holy Spirit whereas the KJV testifies that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His groanings though He can be grieving.

Quote

We see the Holy Spirit speaking throughout the Bible, why here do you take the KJV to mean that when He intercedes for us in prayer He is forbidden to speak? That He would if He could but He cannot?

Here we go again for John 16:13.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.  KJV

John 16:13 When (A)the Spirit of truth comes, (B)he will (C)guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but (D)whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.  ESV

John 16:13 But when He, (A)the Spirit of truth, comes, He will (B)guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. NASB

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth,(A) comes, he will guide you into all the truth.(B) He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. NIV

John 16:13 When the Holy Spirit, who is truth, comes, he shall guide you into all truth, for he will not be presenting his own ideas, but will be passing on to you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. Living Word

John 16:13 But when *he* is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming.  Darby Translation

John 16:13 But when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth [full and complete truth]. For He will not speak on His own initiative, but He will speak whatever He hears [from the Father—the message regarding the Son], and He will disclose to you what is to come [in the future].  Amplified Bible

John 16:13 But when the Spirit of truth comes, he will lead you into all truth. He will not speak his own words. He will speak only what he hears and will tell you what will happen in the future.  Easy To Read Version

John 16:13 But when the Spirit of truth [C the Helper; see 16:7] comes, he will ·lead [guide] you into all truth. He will not speak ·his own words [from his own authority; L from himself], but he will speak only what he hears [C from the Father], and he will ·tell [announce/declare to] you what is to come. Expanded Bible

Are you getting the idea now?

The Holy Spirit only speaks what He hears; He cannot speak from Himself.  Therefore He cannot utter His intercessions out loud, not even His groanings.

Capisce?  This is why not all Bibles are lining up the truthy of John 16:13 with Romans 8:26-27 in that respective Bible however the KJV and a few modern bibles do by noting why the use of "itself" was used instead of "himself" in verse 26 since the he in verse 27 is actually giving the Holy Spirit's silent intercessions by knowing the mind of the Spirit as the Holy Spirit cannot give the intercessions directly himself when Jesus Christ is the only Mediator between God and men. 1 Timothy 2:5

[ChristB4us]

2 hours ago, Arial said:

Still uttering the groanings. It simply means that it is beyond words we know, and probably at times for needs we do not even know we have. That in itself, however it is translated is enough for charismatics to latch on to unintelligible language coming from them as being the Holy Spirit's groanings, and that private prayer language of the Spirit.

The truth of the matter is, that passage is about the Holy Spirit interceding for us in prayer when we do not even know what to pray. And always according to the will of the Father who knows both the mind of the Spirit and us. It is something the Holy Spirit who indwells us does. Nothing more, nothing less. 

It is the Spirit who is interceding for us. Therefore it is correct. Otherwise it would read, "He (God) who searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit because He (God) intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." What it means is that the Father and the Holy Spirit are in unity completely and therefore the Holy Spirit knows what is the will of God. They know each other and communicate in agreement. The Holy Spirit knows what the will of God is and intercedes for the person accordingly and the Father hears Him.

If it meant Jesus it would say Jesus. The Holy Spirit here is interceding in prayer. Jesus intercedes as our substitute that reconciles us to God. The High Priest who cleanses us through faith in the sacrifice of His body and the shedding of His blood. They are One in purpose and intent and accomplishment, but they are not all doing the same aspect of salvation and the sealing and sanctification of the saints.

You are conflating two things that are all part of the whole but distinct within it. One is about prayer. The other is about propitiation. One is about reconciling, the other is about prayer after the reconciliation. 

The Spirit does make direct intercession for us in prayer. The Bible plainly says so no matter what translation you use. Just not in the way tongue speakers say.

Fortunately it is an issue of argument, not an issue of salvation.

There is no uttering His groanings in the KJV.  That is the truth.

Unfortunately, it is about abiding in Him in truth issue and the risk for tongue speakers is being left behind at the rapture event for when the Bridegroom comes as they are following a stranger's voice believing that spirit to be in between them and the father when only Jesus Christ is.

I disagree with how you apply Romans 8:26-27 to mean when John 16:13 testifies He cannot utter anything from Himself in expressing by words or by groanings while ignoring the significance of 1 Timothy 2:5 for why the Holy Spirit cannot give His intercessions directly to the Father as Jesus must present them to the Father to get the father's permission for only Jesus can answer.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.... 

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber... 

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.....

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

But those that follow the stranger's voice are still His sheep even though left behind for why they will be resurrected after the great tribulation and made to hear His voice as their King of kings on earth, thus no longer following a stranger's voice.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Edited April 25, 2023 by ChristB4us

[JimmyB]

1 hour ago, ChristB4us said:

ESV with groanings that cannot be expressed in words & NASB groanings too deep for words are testifying in falsehood of sounds of groanings being uttered by the Holy Spirit whereas the KJV testifies that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His groanings though He can be grieving.

Here we go again for John 16:13.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.  KJV

John 16:13 When (A)the Spirit of truth comes, (B)he will (C)guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but (D)whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.  ESV

John 16:13 But when He, (A)the Spirit of truth, comes, He will (B)guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. NASB

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth,(A) comes, he will guide you into all the truth.(B) He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. NIV

John 16:13 When the Holy Spirit, who is truth, comes, he shall guide you into all truth, for he will not be presenting his own ideas, but will be passing on to you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. Living Word

John 16:13 But when *he* is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming.  Darby Translation

John 16:13 But when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth [full and complete truth]. For He will not speak on His own initiative, but He will speak whatever He hears [from the Father—the message regarding the Son], and He will disclose to you what is to come [in the future].  Amplified Bible

John 16:13 But when the Spirit of truth comes, he will lead you into all truth. He will not speak his own words. He will speak only what he hears and will tell you what will happen in the future.  Easy To Read Version

John 16:13 But when the Spirit of truth [C the Helper; see 16:7] comes, he will ·lead [guide] you into all truth. He will not speak ·his own words [from his own authority; L from himself], but he will speak only what he hears [C from the Father], and he will ·tell [announce/declare to] you what is to come. Expanded Bible

Are you getting the idea now?

The Holy Spirit only speaks what He hears; He cannot speak from Himself.  Therefore He cannot utter His intercessions out loud, not even His groanings.

Capisce?  This is why not all Bibles are lining up the truthy of John 16:13 with Romans 8:26-27 in that respective Bible however the KJV and a few modern bibles do by noting why the use of "itself" was used instead of "himself" in verse 26 since the he in verse 27 is actually giving the Holy Spirit's silent intercessions by knowing the mind of the Spirit as the Holy Spirit cannot give the intercessions directly himself when Jesus Christ is the only Mediator between God and men. 1 Timothy 2:5

This is confusing and the last paragraph is an excellent example of a run-on sentence.  What are you trying to say?

[JimmyB]

3 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Unfortunately, it is about abiding in Him in truth issue and the risk for tongue speakers is being left behind at the rapture event for when the Bridegroom comes as they are following a stranger's voice believing that spirit to be in between them and the father when only Jesus Christ is.

I disagree with how you apply Romans 8:26-27 to mean when John 16:13 testifies He cannot utter anything from Himself in expressing by words or by groanings while ignoring the significance of 1 Timothy 2:5 for why the Holy Spirit cannot give His intercessions directly to the Father as Jesus must present them to the Father to get the father's permission for only Jesus can answer.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.... 

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber... 

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.....

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

But those that follow the stranger's voice are still His sheep even though left behind for why they will be resurrected after the great tribulation and made to hear His voice as their King of kings on earth, thus no longer following a stranger's voice.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Your lack of faith doesn't mean you are correct.  Tongue speakers such as myself will not be left behind, despite what you believe. 

I do not understand (with my mind) what is being said, but that is not important to me.  When I speak in tongues, it is the Holy Spirit within me that is communicating with God.  He gave me that gift when I asked Him for it long ago.

Your rationalizing about sheep following a stranger's voice as applicable to tongue speakers is very strange.

[Arial]

1 hour ago, ChristB4us said:

ESV with groanings that cannot be expressed in words & NASB groanings too deep for words are testifying in falsehood of sounds of groanings being uttered by the Holy Spirit whereas the KJV testifies that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His groanings though He can be grieving

Time to let the debate on the rest. We have achieved a fully circular debate on it.

 

1 hour ago, ChristB4us said:

Are you getting the idea now?

The Holy Spirit only speaks what He hears; He cannot speak from Himself.  Therefore He cannot utter His intercessions out loud, not even His groanings.

What I get is that you are straining  a gnat and swallowing a camel. You are trying to use something as a proof text to discount tongues, that is not a proof text for either side of that argument---nor does it matter. What the passage tells us---that the Holy Spirit helps us in our prayers when we don't even know what to pray---is what matters.

You don't need proof texts to refute tongue speaking in the church today, public or private. The other side will simply counter with theirs. The way to refute it is to know WHY they are not active today. In order to do that you must correctly handle the word in finding out why they were active in the church beginnings. I have told you and got no comment or response on it at all. There seems to be only one party here having a discussion. An argument yes. Discussion, no.

[Arial]

47 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Unfortunately, it is about abiding in Him in truth issue and the risk for tongue speakers is being left behind at the rapture event for when the Bridegroom comes as they are following a stranger's voice believing that spirit to be in between them and the father when only Jesus Christ is.

Whether the Holy Spirit is groaning out loud or silently is not the truth issue. What is is is engaging in vain arguments and debates, with the truth the passage is teaching utterly going by the wayside.

It in particular is not an issue of whether one will go in the rapture or not---as  this rapture thing is not soundly established by any who propose it. Nor is what they call the seven year tribulation. We are in the tribulation era pal. It is this age. The one that extends from Christ's birth until His return. Have you noticed tribulations and persecutions and judgements taking in place in your lifetime, even your life? Have you noticed them all through history?

You are putting too much emphasis on the wrong things and no emphasis of important things.

[Alive]

Please folks. Let's not begin to use personal affronts of any kind. Keep to debating the subject matter and not the individual. Reign in the emotions...its healthier in all ways.

God Bless