What does this passage mean?

[Shilohsfoal]

18 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

When you compare events, like the resurrection day among the 4 gospels, you will find some things left out where others had mentioned to have occurred.  I would suspect that when it comes to what Jesus has said, the same thing can occur.  

Although sometimes I believe Jesus said the same message but differently at different times like Matthew 7:13-27 & Luke 13:24-30.

But obviously the same event in Luke 9th chapter is not fully shared as much as Matthew 10th chapter was.

I understand your point of view but in relation to how you are applying Luke 9:10 to mean but you were applying Matthew 10: 23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come," to the future event of His coming as if no longer among them for when His sayings is to be applied in Matthew 24th chapter to mean. 

Just as you are still trying to apply Luke 9:10 as if by returning to Him, they had not gone over all the cities of Israel when they did before returning to Him.

Let us look at why Matthew had written it as Son of man "be come" to see if this is another translation from the Greek into English as not fully translated.

Textus Receptus Greek Text King James Bible With Strongs Dictionary

In the fifth blue Greek word from the end of that verse 23 when you click on that is "ercomai = erchomai" defined as "middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) eleuthomai el-yoo'-thom-ahee, or (active) eltho el'-tho, which do not otherwise occur) to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set."

I would translate that "be come" as in when they are together again... in Israel.

One thing to discern is that I doubt Jesus was waiting from the very same place He had sent them out from.  Kind of like His sovereignty at work in bringing them to appear before Him again in Israel thus they are returning to Him.

Let us look at Matthew 24th chapter to see if "be come" is also used.

The closest are these 2 verses.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

If you count back from the end of verse 30 of the blue Greek word, I see we get the same word and the same definition which has to be applied in the context of the message when He is no longer among them.

Verse 37 has this Greek word for cometh "parousia = parousia" defined as "from the present participle of pareimi - pareimi 3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; specially, of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physically, aspect:--coming, presence."

Verses 42 & 44 & 46 is the same as the Greek word in verse 30 as well as Matthew 10:23.

So going back to Matthew 10:23 the only difference here is the use of the word for "be" with "be come" in English.  I noticed in the Greek letters, it is shorter than the Greek ones used in the other verses and yet referring to the same Greek word and the same meaning.

Which is why we should question everything being translated from the Greek into English.

But we can ask the Lord and trust him personally as our Good shepherd to help us see the truth in His words even in English.

As it is, I believe Matthew 10:23 is about when they are together again in Israel on earth to continue with him after sending them out.

Jesus did not send His disciples out after speaking to them in Matthew 24th chapter for why what He has said there was Him answering His disciples the 3 questions put to Him about future events, rather than what they are to be expecting as if He was sending them out as before like in Matthew 10th chapter.

Anyway, I thank the Lord for this adventure into His words as I am open to playing the advocate in case I was wrong, but so far, not seeing my view as contrary at all.

Thanks for sharing.

Sure Jesus send his disciples out to the cities of Israel even today.

But most important will be the time period 42 months before he comes during the persecution of the saints in Israel .Most people call this period the tribulation because the saints are killed in Israel for testifying of Christ and warning others not to recieve the mark of the beast .Mathew 10 is an account of what happens to the saints in Israel during that tribulation.It is easily understood once you've learned who the beast is and who the overcomers are.

 

²¹ And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

²² And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

²³ But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

[Shilohsfoal]

18 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

You should consider the possibility with Him to discern that the angels do the collecting at the pre great tribulation event, but the saints in Heaven now perfected at the end of the great tribulation are coming with Him when He battles the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem, touching down on the Mount of Olives to do this in Zechariah 14:1-5 KJV.

I should have included prior verses to show that it is the saints coming with Him as they are clothed in white robes in Revelation 19th chapter below.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Angels have no necessity to be clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  Only saints.

So the battle is done and over with for when Satan is put in the pit for a thousand years after that, right?  So Jesus will be on earth with those pre great tribulation raptured saints when this resurrection was to happen first below, before the rest of the dead are resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgment later on.

Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

See how they align, roving that it is the pre great tribulation saints ( O.T. saints ( N.T. saints found abiding in him and willing to go that comes back with Him at the end of the great tribulation?  Course I am hoping God is causing the increase.

Scripture does not show a pre tribulation resurection. The first resurection in revelation is of those who die during the tribulation.

[Shilohsfoal]

8 hours ago, WilliamL said:

They likely are the ones risen from the dead shortly after Jesus was. Matt. 27:52-53 

Or, they may be in the same state as Paul.

Yes,alot of guessing could be made concerning them when they are redeemed.

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Yes,alot of guessing could be made concerning them when they are redeemed.

Christ has redeemed us.

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Christ has redeemed us.

 

 

Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Edited May 10, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[Last Daze]

17 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

War against the saints as in "The Church?

Where is this teaching found in scripture?

It's found in Daniel 7:21 for starters.  And when you read the narrative found in Revelation 12 and 13 you see at the end of Revelation 12 the dragon "went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."  Revelation 13 gives details of that war to include the mark and image.

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

 

20 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Really,who are they and are they resurected in the first resurection of the dead or the last resurrection of the dead?

Or have they never died and been resurected?

"Christ has (already) redeemed us from the curse of the law," and we are already "justified freely by His Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:13; Rom. 3:24 We have yet to receive "the redemption of our body." Gal. 8:23

You have presumed that the 24 elders have been resurrected from the dead, thus having received the latter redemption, but the text in Revelation 4-5 nowhere says if or when that occurred.

[Shilohsfoal]

On 5/10/2023 at 5:44 PM, WilliamL said:

 

"Christ has (already) redeemed us from the curse of the law," and we are already "justified freely by His Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:13; Rom. 3:24 We have yet to receive "the redemption of our body." Gal. 8:23

You have presumed that the 24 elders have been resurrected from the dead, thus having received the latter redemption, but the text in Revelation 4-5 nowhere says if or when that occurred.

I understand it doesn't say it has occured.

Someone else did.

[truth7t7]

On 5/10/2023 at 9:42 AM, Last Daze said:

It's found in Daniel 7:21 for starters.  And when you read the narrative found in Revelation 12 and 13 you see at the end of Revelation 12 the dragon "went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."  Revelation 13 gives details of that war to include the mark and image.

Where are the "Saints" representing the "Church" seen in Revelation 13, I don't see your claim, possibly you can post it?

Edited May 12, 2023 by truth7t7

[Last Daze]

19 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Where are the "Saints" representing the "Church" seen in Revelation 13, I don't see your claim, possibly you can post it?

I already answered that.  You do know that chapters and verses weren't in the original manuscripts, don't you?