The tribulation saints

[DeighAnn]

54 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Greetings DeighAnn

“Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.  (2)  "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.  (3)  "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” Rev 11:1-3 NASB 

Well first off DeighAnn…verses 1 & 2 of chapter 11 appear to establish a background scenario…for vs. 3 and the introduction of the two witnesses…in a symbolic layout of the temple? We see mentioned…”temple of God, alter, those who worship there, the outer court.” 

Immediately when we do consider this detail…which is an important part of the prophecy…a “framing” of sorts appears for us…some “light” for the subject if you will. 

The ancient temple in Jerusalem is a “type or shadow”…in other words…a ”spiritual picture”…of the temple being measured here…because at this point in time…when John the apostle gets this prophetic vision…the temple in Jerusalem is gone. So it is not a measurement of the physical temple in any sense. 

The “inner court” is in view because the word “temple” as referenced here…”measure the temple of God”…is the term “naos”…commonly…the naos was called the “sanctuary.” In a Greek temple, the “naos” was where the altar and the image of the god whose temple it was…are located. That was what was called the sanctuary where the essence of the deity was housed. Here it seems to mean “where the Spirit or presence of God dwells.” 

The “outer court” is mentioned as being occupied by the “nations…gentiles…heathens”…in other words those “not in Christ”…it is important however to note…that they are in “proximity” to the “naos” of God. 

There was the “hieron”…a temple…either the whole building…or specifically the outer courts…and there was the “naos”...or “inner court”… that part of the temple where God himself resides…so it is no stretch to see the distinction between the “outer…unholy…and inner…Holy…courts.” 

With this approach…one immediately notices that the constituency of each of the “courts” is in “separation or in juxtaposition”…to each other…while sharing the same “building or house?” This will prove to be an important factor as we move forward here. 

Another very important fact is that we understand exactly what the “measuring rod like a staff” actually is…because it can measure the “naos” or presence of God. We need to consider why the “alter” is included in the measurement which then brings in those who “worship” in the “naos” of God. 

Remember this is all directly connected to revealing the identity of the “two witnesses.” 

Are you tracking so far DeighAnn? There is more…one step at a time…this revelation is here for our understanding. Do you have any questions? 

Tatwo…:)

No, I definitely am not, not even close.  NO FAULT of yours...but I think it clearly shows me 'that door' is going to remain 'shut' for me right now, as it doesn't even stir up/touch anything at all in me.  

ONLY thoughts I have had are of the inner part being in heaven, and the 'court' being on the earth and the two witnesses sent to the earth....and I am pretty sure nothing you put forth has to do with that.  

Just not the time...but thank you for trying, I will get back to you when it comes up again...
 

[Ray12614]

5 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Thank you for skipping the entire topic and discourse so the you can go to the last post and not know anything about what is discussed.It pretty much sums up the entire thread.

Point received. Still…… regardless….. I am going to pass on this. 
 

Grace and Peace 

[JoeCanada]

On 5/8/2023 at 10:40 AM, BibleWords said:

One more thing, pre-trib rapture was the doctrine of the first century church.  

Hi BW,

Interesting statement.

I would very much like to see some evidence for this as I'm currently studying the beliefs of the early church.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi BW,

Interesting statement.

I would very much like to see some evidence for this as I'm currently studying the beliefs of the early church.

 

It is an interesting statement seeing the first century church was in tribulation.

John being in prison when he wrote revelation would be a very good clue that there was no rapture before the tribulation of those days.

Revelation 1:9

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Nicole W.]

Where does it say “Tribulation Saints” in the this passage?

[Shilohsfoal]

10 minutes ago, Nicole W. said:

Where does it say “Tribulation Saints” in the this passage?

I emboldened  it for you.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[farouk]

On 5/28/2023 at 2:23 PM, Nicole W. said:

Where does it say “Tribulation Saints” in the this passage?

The context of Matthew 24 seems clearly to refer to saints during the Great Tribulation (verse 21), which does not seem to refer to the church.

[Nicole W.]

32 minutes ago, farouk said:

The context of Matthew 24 seems clearly to refer to saints during the Great Tribulation (verse 21), which does not seem to refer to the church.

The “Church” and the “Saints” are a part of the same group these are the first fruits there are different roles these saints play but the same group that will be in the first Resurrection establishing the kingdom with Jesusupon His return!

[farouk]

4 minutes ago, Nicole W. said:

The “Church” and the “Saints” are a part of the same group these are the first fruits there are different roles these saints play but the same group that will be in the first Resurrection establishing the kingdom with Jesusupon His return!

Matthew 24.21 seems to refer to a unique period in history, not to the general tribulations of life which believers in the church today go through (John 16.33).

[Nicole W.]

1 minute ago, Nicole W. said:

The “Church” and the “Saints” are a part of the same group these are the first fruits there are different roles these saints play but the same group that will be in the first Resurrection establishing the kingdom with Jesusupon His return!

The “Tribulation Saints are the “Two Witnesses”. But not two as in 1+1 but as the chosen vessels is a witness to God and God is a witness to those vessels… they are the 144,000 12 out of 12 tribes it just means chosen