613 Laws : We Read in the New Testament about Sins that will Keep Us from Heaven : How do those Sins connect to the 613 Laws?

[BibleWords]

10 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

 

I'm going to address a couple points here because they're tied together. 

First off, the 613 laws are still laws. Jesus didn't get rid of the law, Jesus fulfilled the law. There is a difference. The apostle Paul stated in Romans, that the law is indeed still in place in that the law defines what is-and what is not sin. So if the law says something is a sin, then it is a sin.

And Slib, let me address point 3, in that while I was not part of the original debate, there's a few ways we can take that.

By follow do you mean believe? Because christians do indeed believe in the Torah. In fact the Torah is one of my favorite parts of the Bible. I could study nothing but Genesis every day and never grow tired.

Or do you mean follow the actual law, as is outlined in Leviticus. To the letter. 

Which, no we don't. But neither do modern day jews, including yourself. When was the last time you journeyed to Jerusalem and offered a fatted calf or a unblemished sheep up as sacrifice?

Even putting the sacrifices aside do you follow it perfectly? Or do you mess up, and react to situations out of anger or selfishness?

Before you think I'm picking on you, I can assure you I'm not, see because I can't judge you-im guilty of not being able to live up to the laws standards myself. And as I addressed earlier, the law does still apply, it does indeed define what is sin, and what is not sin. 

So if I break the law, then therefore I sin and am not worthy to be in God's presence. We cannot be in sin, and in God's presence, this is something that is indeed made clear in the Torah, and reiterated in the new testament. (Romans 3:23, 6:23)

Under the Old covenant, that sin was atoned for by animal sacrifice. Blood had to be spilt to atone for the sin. If no blood is spilt, then no atonement was possible.

None of us are capable of following the law. We are all sinful creatures. As Paul said, I am chief among sinners. 

Thankfully, God gave us His only son as the perfect sacrifice, the sacrifice to end all sacrifices and atone for our sin with His blood. All we have to do is accept His free gift, and we will be covered by grace. 

Without that grace we are all doomed. I pray that you find it.

 

 

You are so right.  Well said.

 

[Retrobyter]

On 5/11/2023 at 6:36 AM, Who me said:

613 Laws : We Read in the New Testament about Sins that will Keep Us from Heaven : How do those Sins connect to the 613 Laws?

 Define what you mean by 613 laws? example you could say how many laws there are in America, numbering all the federal laws, each state laws and talk about the total number of laws required to be obeyed by an American.

But it would be incorrect.

 

There are three types of biblical laws, the ceremonial, to do with temple sacrifice and worship, the civil laws about getting along with other people and the moral laws about living to please God.

 

Which laws are you referring to?

 

We all need to remember it is the failure to keep one law that keeps one out of heaven, it is why the bible labels us All as Sinners, we have All sinned.

Shalom, Who me.

I don't think anyone gave you a direct answer to your question. There are more than 10 commandments in the Torah (the Pentateuch).  There are 613 commandments - God's orders - to the children of Israel. It didn't matter the type. They were required to keep them ALL, however many applied to each one of them. (Some commandments were strictly for women; some were for the priests; some were for adults within a particular age group, etc.)

These are the "613 Laws" to which LiveWire was referring. Actually, though, these are 613 COMMANDMENTS under God's ONE Law.

[LiveWire]

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I think sometimes people leave out the basics because they know it so well that forget to set the foundation for those who might not so I thought I would do Foundation 101 for them, just skip unless you are just a babe in Christ.  I wouldn't trust MY NUMBERS here and I would check out all this stuff FOR MYSELF, if I didn't already know it.  Never take someones word EXCEPT GODS.  If it is written it is a precept of God, if it isn't it is a precept of man.  SIMPLE.  Nothing hidden that can't be found IN HIS WORDS.  



God chose a person/people - Abram/Abraham

GOD told Abraham your family is going into captivity for 4 generations, 400 years.  They became slaves of Egypt.  At the end of the 400 years, these million? slaves/people leave Egypt, RICH RICH RICH and have the SEA PARTED for them to begin their journey and off to freedom and to become a nation in the promised land they go (cept for the hiccups along the way)


A cazillion slaves.  Which of any of them KNOWS how to RUN A NATION, A Kingdom, A tribe, A city????  Besides Moses?  So, GOD GIVES 'laws to them', who until then have only known how EGYPT does it, PROMISE to serve God.  Hence all the laws from How do you rule and reign and punish and laws and 613 laws isn't that many when it comes to EVERYTHING even what the priests do.  


Might as well get to reading those laws because THY KINGDOM COME is going to NEED those who know the law to rule and reign.  

Has anyone ever considered that the JEWS who read the Old Test, when the 'vail' is lifted and the two sticks are made one that NOT ONLY ARE THEY GOING TO HAVE JUST AS MUCH 'FAITH' they are going to have ALL THE KNOWLEDGE, while Christians will have excuses on why they don't know anything or didn't believe the OLD was just as much for them.  


I am sure everyone already knows all this, so just a reminder for "some babe" in Christ who hasn't read the whole book precept on precept.... yet will think, THAT just might be a really good idea on how to learn who GOD is, on a much deeper level; like those who know the law...   

This is good stuff here because it reflects you have read the Old Testament.   A portion of this actual Thread is predicated upon the Fact that Followers of Christ are also well versed and study the Tanakh (Old Testament).   

There is a misconception that Followers of Christ begin their Journey with Ha-Shem at Matthew Chapter 1 Verse 1.   Some sincerely believe we've tossed, done away with, find no useful practice for and towards the Old Covenant.   They do not realize we believe until one is Saved, or comes to be a Follower of Ha-Shem, they are Sinful based upon the LAW and the 613 Laws.   And that after becoming a Follower of Ha-Shem, we will STILL SIN, which is a SIN, that is defined by those LAWS and require Repentance.

I believe the majority of Seasoned Followers of Ha-Shem /"Yeshua" desires the Knowledge of Both Covenants.

[JimmyB]

There are two separate and distinct covenants.  The first was governed by the written laws that were given by God to govern the Jews.  As was clearly shown, it is impossible to keep all the laws. 

The second is to live by the guidance of the Holy Spirit who, after Jesus was resurrected, was given to Christians to guide us into all truth.

The violations of the first covenant were paid for by the sacrifice of animals.  The violations of the second covenant has been paid for by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

God has written His laws on our hearts.  As long as we are led by the Spirit, we are living according to God's will and no further sacrifices are necessary.

[DeighAnn]

10 minutes ago, LiveWire said:

This is good stuff here because it reflects you have read the Old Testament.   A portion of this actual Thread is predicated upon the Fact that Followers of Christ are also well versed and study the Tanakh (Old Testament).   

There is a misconception that Followers of Christ begin their Journey with Ha-Shem at Matthew Chapter 1 Verse 1.   Some sincerely believe we've tossed, done away with, find no useful practice for and towards the Old Covenant.   They do not realize we believe until one is Saved, or comes to be a Follower of Ha-Shem, they are Sinful based upon the LAW and the 613 Laws.   And that after becoming a Follower of Ha-Shem, we will STILL SIN, which is a SIN, that is defined by those LAWS and require Repentance.

I believe the majority of Seasoned Followers of Ha-Shem /"Yeshua" desires the Knowledge of Both Covenants.

Faith comes by hearing 'the words of GOD' and without knowing ALL HIS words, we make up our OWN 'fill in the blank' religion, and not until standing before Him will we realize all of that is nothing more than filthy rags to Him.  

How many teachings/precepts of man wouldn't exist if people went to the schoolmaster first.  I love the Lords choice in PAUL, sat at the feet of Gamaliel.   I think that is why he could stand in the face of everything that came his way.  HE KNEW GODS WORDS BETTER than everyone else and once the 'traditions' of man were wiped out of him, there was no stopping Gods wisdom and knowledge being put forth by such a zealous man...can't wait to meet him too!



 

[NConly]

15 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

 

I'm going to address a couple points here because they're tied together. 

First off, the 613 laws are still laws. Jesus didn't get rid of the law, Jesus fulfilled the law. There is a difference. The apostle Paul stated in Romans, that the law is indeed still in place in that the law defines what is-and what is not sin. So if the law says something is a sin, then it is a sin.

And Slib, let me address point 3, in that while I was not part of the original debate, there's a few ways we can take that.

By follow do you mean believe? Because christians do indeed believe in the Torah. In fact the Torah is one of my favorite parts of the Bible. I could study nothing but Genesis every day and never grow tired.

Or do you mean follow the actual law, as is outlined in Leviticus. To the letter. 

Which, no we don't. But neither do modern day jews, including yourself. When was the last time you journeyed to Jerusalem and offered a fatted calf or a unblemished sheep up as sacrifice?

Even putting the sacrifices aside do you follow it perfectly? Or do you mess up, and react to situations out of anger or selfishness?

Before you think I'm picking on you, I can assure you I'm not, see because I can't judge you-im guilty of not being able to live up to the laws standards myself. And as I addressed earlier, the law does still apply, it does indeed define what is sin, and what is not sin. 

So if I break the law, then therefore I sin and am not worthy to be in God's presence. We cannot be in sin, and in God's presence, this is something that is indeed made clear in the Torah, and reiterated in the new testament. (Romans 3:23, 6:23)

Under the Old covenant, that sin was atoned for by animal sacrifice. Blood had to be spilt to atone for the sin. If no blood is spilt, then no atonement was possible.

None of us are capable of following the law. We are all sinful creatures. As Paul said, I am chief among sinners. 

Thankfully, God gave us His only son as the perfect sacrifice, the sacrifice to end all sacrifices and atone for our sin with His blood. All we have to do is accept His free gift, and we will be covered by grace. 

Without that grace we are all doomed. I pray that you find it.

 

 

(First off, the 613 laws are still laws. Jesus didn't get rid of the law, Jesus fulfilled the law.)

Jesus fulfilled the Law. I agree.

The law is still laws. I agree however they do not apply to NC by Faith in Jesus believers imo.

Rom 6

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Acts 15

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Eph 2

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

My belief I don't claim as to be right over someone else's belief. One can read the laws and live by them of their choice; but I believe we are under Faith in Jesus and are not required to live by the law all 613 all law.

 

[JimmyB]

12 minutes ago, Tony the student said:

For mankind, it is impossible to keep all the Laws of God. Jesus, who lived in the flesh, did not break one Law. Therefore, it is only possible for God to be perfect under the law.

God laid down the Law for His first covenant people. He did this to reveal Himself and His Way of Life to the world. Father and the Spirit of Christ God is older than Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses. The Spirit of Christ is older than the flesh and blood body that God gave Him, Jesus, when He came into the world.

Spirit gives birth to Spirit; flesh gives birth to flesh.

The laws Jesus wants to write onto our hearts are the same laws written in the Hebrew Bible. However, I no longer offer blood sacrifice for any sin, the blood of my Lord Jesus now fulfills the blood offering.

How do I recognize sin without the law? Sin is lawless behavior. The Law is not my savior. Christ Jesus is my savior and this by Faith alone. Though, I have a Faith leading to Obedience. This obedience is to the Laws of God. I do my best to uphold the law. When I sin, which is lawless behavior, I can go directly to Father God in the name of Jesus and ask forgiveness for my sin, which is revealed by the Law.

We are not under the Law. We are under Christ, who is the Lawgiver.

I think that I agree with you, but I'm not sure.

You wrote "The laws Jesus wants to write onto our hearts are the same laws written in the Hebrew Bible", then ended your post with "We are not under the Law. We are under Christ, who is the Lawgiver".  To me, these statements are contradictory.

To me, we are under under the law -- a set of written instructions that define how we should behave -- or we are guided by the Holy Spirit.  The first is external, the second is internal, i.e., "written on our hearts".  Personally I find it very difficult to refer to an external rulebook to determine which actions are appropriate and which are not.  That is being governed by my mind.  Instead, I let my conscience guide me, which I believe is consistent with what is meant by being guided by the Holy Spirit.

Is what I am doing motivated by my love for others or by my seeking what is best for me personally?  I strongly believe that all my needs are fulfilled by Christ, so that I have the ability and the strength to make the lives of others better.  That starts with the family that God has given me and extends from there to others.

[The_Patriot21]

1 minute ago, NConly said:

(First off, the 613 laws are still laws. Jesus didn't get rid of the law, Jesus fulfilled the law.)

Jesus fulfilled the Law. I agree.

The law is still laws. I agree however they do not apply to NC by Faith in Jesus believers imo.

Rom 6

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Acts 15

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Eph 2

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

My belief I don't claim as to be right over someone else's belief. One can read the laws and live by them of their choice; but I believe we are under Faith in Jesus and are not required to live by the law all 613 all law.

 

Yes and no...they "don't apply" because In essence we are covered by grace. Sin is still sin, as a Christian we can't just go and kill someone, nor cheat on our wives, nor be a homosexual. What the law defines as sin is still sin whether we are saved or not.

What changes is we are no longer required to follow the sacrificial System to cover them, as Christ atoned for it with His blood. And we allow Christ to purify is-and He takes that need to sin, away from us.

Of course, if we are not saved that law still sends us to hell.

[JimmyB]

43 minutes ago, The_Patriot21 said:

Yes and no...they "don't apply" because In essence we are covered by grace. Sin is still sin, as a Christian we can't just go and kill someone, nor cheat on our wives, nor be a homosexual. What the law defines as sin is still sin whether we are saved or not.

What changes is we are no longer required to follow the sacrificial System to cover them, as Christ atoned for it with His blood. And we allow Christ to purify is-and He takes that need to sin, away from us.

Of course, if we are not saved that law still sends us to hell.

Christians are governed (internally) by the Holy Spirit, not externally by a set of written rules.  One is either guided by the law or by the Holy Spirit.

[Daniel Marsh]

Bottom line, if one puts themselves under the law, they have forfieted Salvation in Jesus.