1 Thessalonians 4:15 - Matthew 24:22

[JoeCanada]

 

1 Thes 4:15:

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Matthew 24:22:

Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

 

In these passages, we may have overlooked two very important understandings. 

1 Thes: the term "alive and remain" or "alive and are left" is a Greek term meaning survival.

The Greek word for remain is perileipomai. It's a verb which means to leave over.... to remain over.... to survive.

It's not a general term for 'being alive'. It is used only twice in the New Testament, here and in verse 17. It's a term that means 'survival'.... survival where other people have already died.

So what is Paul  telling us  ..... Jesus is not going to come and 'poof' take us away from our everyday normal lives. Paul is saying there is going to be great tribulation ...... those who remain and survive until the coming of Jesus.... SURVIVE what? Survive the tribulation!

This is consistent with what Jesus tells us in Matt 24:22 ..... " Unless those days had been cut short".... what days? Those days of great tribulation will be cut short because "no life would be saved"..... that term "no life would be saved" means to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction

If Jesus doesn't cut short the days of tribulation, then no life would have been saved. . The 'life' Jesus is  talking about is the saints, the believers. The onslaught from the antichrist and his goons will be so widespread that a total wipeout of Christians would happen unless He cuts those days short.... for the sake of believers, the elect of God!

Some say that the 'elect' are the Jews. 

Here are the 8 times elect is used in the NT:

 Mat 24:22......“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mat 24:24....“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Mat 24:31.....“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 Mar 13:20.....“Unless the Lord had shortened those days, life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mar 13:22.....for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Mar 13:27.....“And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Luk 18:7.....now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

Rom 8:33.....Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

ELECT..... picked out........... chosen................. chosen by God to obtain salvation through Christ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[R. Hartono]

@JoeCanada 

Survive the great tribulation ? Howbeit its possible ? You will be beheaded.

 

[WilliamL]

On 6/2/2023 at 8:08 AM, JoeCanada said:

The onslaught from the antichrist and his goons will be so widespread that a total wipeout of Christians would happen unless He cuts those days short.... for the sake of believers, the elect of God!

This is the only place I would quibble with your post. "The antichrist" not a term used in the Bible like most people (mis)use it today, and should be avoided. It only leads to confusion. My reasoning for saying so is found here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1150-the-antichrist-myth/

[TheBlade]

"fallen asleep" not something I think I have ever read about here. does it in that verse mean "dead"? Is it the same exact meaning said hmm some where else?

I stopped a while....long while ago debating. Over all it tends to divide so if when I do it with those I know understand no offense please. 

So one can find that word does in fact can also mean or not mean in this case dead but not following Christ as they should but are sleeping. Not saying I agree but its like "fallen away" was written in the bible many years first as "departure" and it can mean depart or fallen away.

Ever ready 1st Cor then up to 15 I believe? Then look back at all the believers he was addressing talking to and then hmm who would be all he was referring to?  I can see it not sure I believe what I mean is some say no matter what you believe when He comes in the air all  believers go. Sounds awesome for sure. I remember and take with a grain of salt this preacher that just felt God was far off like something was missing. Was not getting answers so they prayed. Oh and this part blows me away well do you do this when you just feel like Christ is not there like something is off in your life? He prayed.. no he and others of that Church prayed hours none stop day and night. After some time he said Christ shows up. For me that part sounds true.. well He does not play games. So we must mean it from our hearts or He will say nothing.

The preacher said Christ said "if I had come I would not have taken you". The man didn't understand at all what Christ was talking about. He said right then he found himself back driving his car looking at some woman undressing her. Then it changes found himself back in Church preaching looking at some woman lusting. He did all that and never repented. Sound true yet its not scripture. Me I don't repent and try to keep His word because ooh I have to get caught up (Rapture). I am always watching ready for Him since I was not promised tomorrow and I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE.. did I say LOVE? LOVE to think about Him.. and then perfect peace.. He said I will keep you in perfect peace whos mind is stayed on Him "You will keep him in perfect peace, Whose mind is stayed on You,
Because he trusts in You.". Its something our FATHER promised.. He knows this world and it can do... He always makes a way out

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, TheBlade said:

"fallen asleep" not something I think I have ever read about here. does it in that verse mean "dead"? Is it the same exact meaning said hmm some where else?

I stopped a while....long while ago debating. Over all it tends to divide so if when I do it with those I know understand no offense please. 

So one can find that word does in fact can also mean or not mean in this case dead but not following Christ as they should but are sleeping.

It all depends on the context. In 1 Thes 4:13, Paul begins by saying to the Thessalonians:

"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus."

In this context, "those who are asleep" are the ones who have died. Paul reaffirms this when he tells them that God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. (those who have died in the faith)

We can also see this in Matthew 27:52:

"The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen  asleep  were raised".... these saints had died and were resurrected.

But, in Matthew 28:13:

 “You are to say, ‘His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep"....

So it's the same word, but context tells us the meaning. In this case, it was actual sleeping.

1 hour ago, TheBlade said:

So one can find that word does in fact can also mean or not mean in this case dead but not following Christ as they should but are sleeping

Yes.... I haven't thought about it but you are correct. 

Jesus commands the church to WAKE UP in Revelation 3:

Rev 3:2.... ‘Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.

Rev 3:3....‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.

Koodos!

[farouk]

Matt. 24 and Luke 21 seem to refer to tribulation saints after the church has gone.

Edited June 5, 2023 by farouk

[JoeCanada]

5 minutes ago, farouk said:

Matt. 24 and Luke 21 seem to refer to tribulation saints after the church has gone.

Which church are you referring to?

John wrote letters to SEVEN different churches in Asia. There was not "ONE" church, but "SEVEN"

We are ALL tribulation saints....... and the "church" is still here!

Rev 1:9......"I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus."

2Th 1:4......"therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure."

Jhn 16:33......“These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

Rom 2:9....."There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek"

Rom 5:3......."And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance"

1Th 1:6......"You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit"

[farouk]

2 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Which church are you referring to?

John wrote letters to SEVEN different churches in Asia. There was not "ONE" church, but "SEVEN"

We are ALL tribulation saints....... and the "church" is still here!

Rev 1:9......"I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus."

2Th 1:4......"therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure."

Jhn 16:33......“These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

Rom 2:9....."There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek"

Rom 5:3......."And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance"

1Th 1:6......"You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit"

The one that began in Acts 2. Referred to also in Ephesians 1.23 and in 1 Corinthians 10.32.

[seeking the lost]

On 6/2/2023 at 9:08 AM, JoeCanada said:

 

1 Thes 4:15:

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Matthew 24:22:

Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

 

In these passages, we may have overlooked two very important understandings. 

1 Thes: the term "alive and remain" or "alive and are left" is a Greek term meaning survival.

The Greek word for remain is perileipomai. It's a verb which means to leave over.... to remain over.... to survive.

It's not a general term for 'being alive'. It is used only twice in the New Testament, here and in verse 17. It's a term that means 'survival'.... survival where other people have already died.

So what is Paul  telling us  ..... Jesus is not going to come and 'poof' take us away from our everyday normal lives. Paul is saying there is going to be great tribulation ...... those who remain and survive until the coming of Jesus.... SURVIVE what? Survive the tribulation!

This is consistent with what Jesus tells us in Matt 24:22 ..... " Unless those days had been cut short".... what days? Those days of great tribulation will be cut short because "no life would be saved"..... that term "no life would be saved" means to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction

If Jesus doesn't cut short the days of tribulation, then no life would have been saved. . The 'life' Jesus is  talking about is the saints, the believers. The onslaught from the antichrist and his goons will be so widespread that a total wipeout of Christians would happen unless He cuts those days short.... for the sake of believers, the elect of God!

Some say that the 'elect' are the Jews. 

Here are the 8 times elect is used in the NT:

 Mat 24:22......“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mat 24:24....“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Mat 24:31.....“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 Mar 13:20.....“Unless the Lord had shortened those days, life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mar 13:22.....for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Mar 13:27.....“And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Luk 18:7.....now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

Rom 8:33.....Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

ELECT..... picked out........... chosen................. chosen by God to obtain salvation through Christ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Those described as alive and remain are in the time frame at the end of the millennium.  Satan has been loosed and will deceive many.  Remain refers to those who have not been deceived.  The resurrection is followed by the rapture.  Both of these events happen at the same time after the thousand years.

[douggg]

On 6/2/2023 at 9:08 AM, JoeCanada said:

So what is Paul  telling us  ..... Jesus is not going to come and 'poof' take us away from our everyday normal lives. Paul is saying there is going to be great tribulation ...... those who remain and survive until the coming of Jesus.... SURVIVE what? Survive the tribulation!

In obituaries, it is common that when someone dies, like a woman for example,  it will say somthing like - she is "survived" by two daughters and a son, and her husband of fifty years.

Paul is not saying survive the great tribulation.   

If you continue in 1Thessalonians to the next chapter, the rapture/resurrection event is repeated, in verses 10-11.    With the timing to be before the beginning of the day of the Lord, when God's wrath will be poured out during the great tribulation.

1Thessalonians5:

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

Our salvation will be complete when our bodies are redeemed into incorruptible, immortal bodies.