Adam & Eve - Christ & The Church

[farouk]

1 hour ago, debrakay said:

Whew!  Thank goodness y'all did not decided to go with the Hebrew or Greek translations for this thread.  I would have clicked out a long time ago and I am only halfway through the posts.

BTW it is a very good thread with a lot of good points and thoughts.  Some get a bit windy but all in all it's good.

@debrakay I do in principle like the KJV as a translation........

[Your closest friendnt]

31 minutes ago, farouk said:

@debrakay Reminds me of Romans 5.12: "...by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned".

This is not what God said in Genesis 4:6 

And 6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

But if you do not do what is right,

sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

Till that time Adam and Eve and Abel and Cain they were all alive to God....they were in the disobedience of Adam all of them...because Abel and Cain were in the inherited disobedience of Adam even though they never disobeyed God in the same way Adam did. They inherited that from Adam...

After Cain sin  by killing Abel then he became dead to God because of his sin...his own sin...while he was still alive...

Cain understood that himself the way he talked to God and before God talked to him and tell him that himself by the chance that happened to him after he killed Abel. 

Something similar happened to Adam and Eve when they ate from the fruit of the forbidden tree..they realized that they had changed...and they became conscious about a lot of things...this is why God told them...or God knew that they had disobey him because they were in a New consciousness. 

Cain knew that he was separated from God because of his sin.

Aka dead to God because of sin...this time with Cain was murder....to some other people who never killed anyone was to worship the Idols...

Some they never sin and never worship the Idols...

But they were still in the inherited disobedience of Adam in the death of Adam's disobedience...

You must know some people who were righteous towards God and yet in the disobedience of Adam and when they died they were seperated from God even though while alive they were not seperated from God. 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[farouk]

1 minute ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is not what God said in Genesis 4:6 

And 6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

But if you do not do what is right,

sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

Till that time Adam and Eve and Abel and Cain they were all alive to God....they were in the disobedience of Adam all of them...because Abel and Cain were in the inherited disobedience of Adam even though they never disobeyed God in the same way Adam did. They inherited that from Adam...

After Cain sin  by killing Abel then he became dead to God because of his sin...his own sin...

Cain understood that himself the way he talked to God and before God talked to him and tell him that himself by the chance that happened to him after he killed Abel. 

Something similar happened to Adam and Eve when they ate from the fruit of the forbidden tree..they realized that they had changed...and they became conscious about a lot of things...this is why God told them...or God knew that they had disobey him because they were in a New consciousness. 

Cain knew that he was separated from God because of his sin.

Aka dead to God because of sin...this time with Cain was murder....to some other people who never killed anyone was to worship the Idols...

Some they never sin and never worship the Idols...

But they were still in the inherited disobedience of Adam in the death of Adam's disobedience...

You must know some people who were righteous towards God and yet in the disobedience of Adam and when they died they were seperated from God even though while alive they were not seperated from God. 

 

 

There is no contradiction between the Genesis and Romans passages.

[Your closest friendnt]

Just now, farouk said:

There is no contradiction between the Genesis and Romans passages.

You have to show that...with scripture...and do not take the name of Paul as your shield...because Paul said that they were people who did not commit the disobedience of Adam and they never sin the were righteous towards God and inspite of that they were still in the death that came with Adam's disobedience upon all men because it was inherited from Adam because of hid disobedience and not because of sin...

 

With the exception of Abraham and his chosen seed...the people of God who were alive to him after their death (physical) .

 

[Your closest friendnt]

15 minutes ago, farouk said:

There is no contradiction between the Genesis and Romans passages.

Romans 5.12: "...by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned".

You have to follow that with some argument that can be discussed that proves what you say it is so. And it is also Paul's understanding because Paul said many other things that show that all men died to God at the time of their physical death who were alive to God while they lived because of the disobedience of Adam and not their own. 

And we have Exodus 3:6 where Moses was told by God that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob are alive to him even though they died long time ago...

God said that they are not dead to him that they are alive to him...

Moses cannot agree with what you suggest when you read Romans.  Neither Jesus Christ agreed, but he agree with Moses that they were alive to God after they died...

The Death that came to Adam did not come close to them, did not touched them...and the God of the Dead did not touched them. Death and Hades had no dominion over Abraham and his chosen seed...

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, Anne2 said:

I hope you all do not mind addressing a point here for the purpose of finding harmony of thoughts in agreement where possible. My intent, is not to challenge, and create a dichotomy of scriptural rights and wrongs at all. I think it is important. If you all do not, I will not bring up this again.

Your mention of "God's government".Could this be the same as rule, or reign?

If so, could it be helpful to speak of kings? Is Noah spoken of as a ruler as king? 

A king was a judge of his people, We see this with the kings of Israel as well. Solomons wisdom in judging the causes which came before him for his wisdom.

1Sa 8:5  And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

Noah, condemned the world.
Heb 11:7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

2632 κατακρίνω katakrino kat-ak-ree’-no

from 2596 and 2919; v; TDNT-3:951,469; {See TDNT 412}

AV-condemn 17, damn 2; 19

1) to give judgment against, to judge worthy of punishment
1a) to condemn
1b) by one’s good example to render another’s wickedness the more evident and censurable 

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (heirs of the same promise Gen 17, kings for seed)

These are Gods' anointed ones.....prophets

Reproved kings

1Ch 16:21  He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes,
Ps 105:14  He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes;

Did God's prophets also not speak from God? and not private?

Abraham, called God, the judge of all the earth, who does right in judgement.

Yes. God's government, as I meant it is the process whereby God keeps order. Inside the atom there are laws and rules that make it function consistently well. Water is at its densest at 4°C /39°F - a clever law that saves the fish of the polar caps from being trapped in solid ice at the bottom of the sea. God has His govern-ment everywhere to maintain order. And if we doubt it at all because evil men rule, we have a wonderful example in Deuteronomy 7:22-23. God would not allow Israel to conquer the Land too quickly, lest while fighting in other parts of the Land, the wild animals would take over rule. God has given government on earth into man's hands, and He would rather have an evil Canaanite rule than a badger.

As for judging, I can only agree with you. The only point I would like to be clear on is that in this age the Church may only may judge its members. In the next age we will judge the Nations and the angels (1st Cor.6:1-6).

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, debrakay said:

God does fix broken things.  I was broken and then I was restored when I chose Jesus as my savior, redeemer, healer, my King and my Lord.  I am a new creation and have been fixed (renewed).

2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

John 3:5 - 'Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

James 1:18 - He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Galatians 6:15 - Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.

Colossians 1:15 - The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Genesis 1:27 - So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

 

 

 

I know what you mean. It's just that in explaining the matter, I went strictly according to scripture. You did too. Notice that you said; "the old is gone". If you were an old vintage watch that had fallen under a car wheel and was crushed, you will not be repaired. The Lord makes you a brand new Rolex.

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@AdHoc

Greetings to you brother, we are not adversaries when we see something in a similar way and we are not adversaries when our views are not the same. 

Jesus was the First and the Last in many things. 

He was the first man to come out from a woman with the Life of God in him.

Not having a human Father. His life coming from the Heavenly Father....

When his mother gave birth to him an Adam was born.

A man with the Life of God in him was born...the new branch from the root of Jesse had just sprout and began to grow.  

This is the first and the last..an Adam to be born. 

 

The Logos who was from the beginning with God and who came out fron God and being God himself and who was towards God...whom God sent to Create the world and man the one who gave life to man...came into our world through his birth from a maiden name Mary (Myriam) (for the Moslems who may read this post) and at the time of his birth he was attached to Mary's pipblical cord. 

An Adam was born "the first and the Last"...if he fails in his mission The Heavenly Father did not have anyone else to sent.

If he fails and be lost, Enoch would be lost Elijah would be lost, (Moses would be lost) and Abraham and all of his chosen children who were with him will be lost also because he was the one who gave Life to them..and if he is lost they will be lost with him. 

In Revelation chapter one Jesus as the first born from the dead or the place of the dead..he came out from that place to never go back there again.  

In this situation Jesus said I am the first but he did not say I am the Last...others followed after him...

  Jesus the first one who came out of the place of the dead and enter Heaven and not the last one because he opened the way for others to follow. Abraham and everyone else with him were waiting for that moment and they followed him. 

Since that time the way to the Heavenly Father is open and when we die it is open for us also because we are in Jesus Christ the Lord of heaven. 

Note: the door to the place to the underworld is close for us we believe in Jesus Christ. 

I can agree with most of what you said. Where we differ will not serve the thread if we discuss it. And it is not crucial doctrine. It can wait for another day.

God bless

[Anne2]

34 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Yes. God's government, as I meant it is the process whereby God keeps order. Inside the atom there are laws and rules that make it function consistently well. Water is at its densest at 4°C /39°F - a clever law that saves the fish of the polar caps from being trapped in solid ice at the bottom of the sea. God has His govern-ment everywhere to maintain order. And if we doubt it at all because evil men rule, we have a wonderful example in Deuteronomy 7:22-23. God would not allow Israel to conquer the Land too quickly, lest while fighting in other parts of the Land, the wild animals would take over rule. God has given government on earth into man's hands, and He would rather have an evil Canaanite rule than a badger.

As for judging, I can only agree with you. The only point I would like to be clear on is that in this age the Church may only may judge its members. In the next age we will judge the Nations and the angels (1st Cor.6:1-6).

Thank you for taking the time, I appreciate it. I like what you say about judging their own. I think that can also apply, but that might get to get to windy :-). you do see men being founders of cities and kingdoms etc. Over their own house perhaps that grows. Maybe marrying many wives (daughters of men).

But as for the rest I would just like to post a few vs.

Thrones

Mt 19:28  And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Priests (on thrones)

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1 cor 4:8  Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
 

Blessings to you

[Marilyn C]

Yes God`s word says that we, the Body of Christ will be KINGPRIESTS.

So, (respectfully) if we are supposed to be the wife, the bride of Christ, then we would be QUEEN PRIESTS.