Our Tri-part Make Up

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

FreeGrace said: 

All truth available for the human race has been put in God's Word.  Are you suggesting that you're getting extrabiblical inspiration?

There is clear Scripture for what I've shared.  I'm open to correction, if indicated.

Nope…I don’t function that way. I will never knowingly contradict scripture and whatever I propose is grounded there, to the best of the ability God gave me and the Help of the Holy Spirit.

I'm confused.  First you say "I do not think any of these explanations are entirely correct".  But then, when I ask for any correction, you say you never knowingly contradict Scripture.  Well, I gave verses for each of my points.  If I'm "not enti4ely correct", where, exactly am I "not correct"?  Thanks.

[Alive]

16 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I'm confused.  First you say "I do not think any of these explanations are entirely correct".  But then, when I ask for any correction, you say you never knowingly contradict Scripture.  Well, I gave verses for each of my points.  If I'm "not enti4ely correct", where, exactly am I "not correct"?  Thanks.

First off, I am not telling you that you are wrong. That wasn’t my motive or intent. I said, I do not think.

Essentially, i am simply fellowshipping and sharing something happening with me, in recent months, where it seems to me, the Lord is shedding additional Light on something for me. Actually, it is connected to an understanding that has been slowly unpeeled for decades.

Ya know, if brethren are hanging out and one says, hey guys…I think the Lord is showing me something, but I do not think I should share it quite yet.

[JohnD]

On 6/17/2023 at 6:39 AM, Dennis1209 said:

I have a question about our tri-part being, namely, our spirits.

We are tri-part beings, consisting of body, soul, and spirit. Many know our corruptible bodies will return to the earth from which they were made. If saved, our bodies will be raised incorruptibly and glorified.

As mentioned in a current thread, our soul is the seat of who we are, our free will, emotions, senses, choices, likes, dislikes, etc.

If I understand correctly, our spirits are the part of us that can communicate with God, that part that the Holy Spirit indwells as Christians; we pray in the Spirit. The below verse seems to show no distinction between the saved and the lost. At physical death, it appears all spirits return to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

In the example of Lazarus and the Rich Man in Hades, it appears the rich man’s soul was confined in torment, and he exhibited all the definitions of the soul. There used to be a common saying, “that poor soul,” not that poor body or spirit.

The preceding leads me to my question. As stated, all spirits (saved & lost) return to the Lord who gave them, and I assume that would be in Heaven. What happens to those human spirits that returned to the Lord? Are they reunited with the soul and body at the appointed time of the resurrection of both the saved and lost? Did the Rich Man possess his spirit in Hades?

My take on this is the definition of the soul as the seat of who we are as individuals etc. is in error from the definition of psuche / psyche.  Man's understanding of our make up grew along the way... what we now know as functions of the brain was once upon a time believed to be in the torso / bowels.

That individual / personal part of us that makes us animated / alive is the spirit within us, and the psuche / soul is essentially a buffer between the two realities that make up who and what we are. The progressive understanding of man also is reflected in the attributing of the soul as the spirit and even the soul as the body. My take on this is that the soul has properties of both spirit and body and this is why the distinction is sometimes blurred.

Point being, in the end we will be raised to eternal life in the same bodies (Romans 8:23) but the bodies will be changed into spirit bodies (1 Corinthians 15:35-50) to be like Jesus in his resurrected state (1 John 3:2)... which will have flesh and bone (Luke 34:39) but no longer having blood (1 Corinthians 15:50). Notice also the spirit body makes no mention of a soul. 

In fact, this would solve the dilemma of understanding what happens to us in death.

the spirit leaves the body

the body ceases to function and decays

the soul (which was the overlap / buffer between the two ceases to exist)

solving the three descriptions of human death in scripture.

 

In the end, we will be spirit bodies infused spirit-body.

[teddyv]

On 6/17/2023 at 5:17 AM, FreeGrace said:

However, Rev 20:10 shows that for those cast into the LOF, there "will be torment day and night for ever and ever".

So they don't actually die.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

  FreeGrace said: 

However, Rev 20:10 shows that for those cast into the LOF, there "will be torment day and night for ever and ever".

So they don't actually die.

 Correct.  No annihilation of souls.  If God destroys a soul, it ceases to exist, and there is no consciousness or experience.  And Rev 20:10 makes real clear that there will be torment forever.  In fact, when Satan will be cast into the LOF, the 2 human beings who are there have been there for 1,000 years already, and the verse ends with:  THEY shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The "they" include the beast, FP and Satan.  So we know that humans will exist in the LOF.  Their souls will not die.  Their bodies will for sure.  That is why the LOF is also called the second death.  Their resurrected physical body will die again.  But not their souls.

[teddyv]

5 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

 Correct.  No annihilation of souls.  If God destroys a soul, it ceases to exist, and there is no consciousness or experience.  And Rev 20:10 makes real clear that there will be torment forever.  In fact, when Satan will be cast into the LOF, the 2 human beings who are there have been there for 1,000 years already, and the verse ends with:  THEY shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The "they" include the beast, FP and Satan.  So we know that humans will exist in the LOF.  Their souls will not die.  Their bodies will for sure.  That is why the LOF is also called the second death.  Their resurrected physical body will die again.  But not their souls.

I realize this is getting off-topic:

Isaiah 34:8-10

8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
    a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
    her dust into burning sulfur;
    her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
    its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
    no one will ever pass through it again.

Is Edom still smoking to this day? Is that area still desolate and uninhabited by no person?

Revelation is extensively utilizing OT imagery and language.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, teddyv said:

I realize this is getting off-topic:

Isaiah 34:8-10

8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
    a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
    her dust into burning sulfur;
    her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
    its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
    no one will ever pass through it again.

Is Edom still smoking to this day? Is that area still desolate and uninhabited by no person?

Revelation is extensively utilizing OT imagery and language.

The difference between Isa 34:10 and Rev 20:10 is the specificity in Rev.  When "day and night" precedes "for ever and ever" you can bet it means never ending.  "day and night" is 24 hours, or 1 day.  So "for ever and ever" means a day over and over for ever.

It is possible that Isa 34 refers to the eternity of torment on Edom.  Figurative language to indicate that Edom's punishment will be in the LOF.

The very fact that the beast and FP will have been IN the LOF for 1,000 years in torment before Satan joins them should be evidence enough that everyone cast into the LOF will be tormented "for ever and ever".

You also have to address and explain why Jesus said this:

Matt 10:15 - Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

Matt 11:22 - But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you.

Matt 11:24 - But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”

Why would Jesus say the judgment of S & G on the day of judgment (GWT) be MORE BEARABLE/TOLERABLE than for the religious and highly moral people of His own day?

If everyone is annihilated when cast into the LOF, then there won't be any difference for anyone.

[NConly]

27 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The difference between Isa 34:10 and Rev 20:10 is the specificity in Rev.  When "day and night" precedes "for ever and ever" you can bet it means never ending.  "day and night" is 24 hours, or 1 day.  So "for ever and ever" means a day over and over for ever.

It is possible that Isa 34 refers to the eternity of torment on Edom.  Figurative language to indicate that Edom's punishment will be in the LOF.

The very fact that the beast and FP will have been IN the LOF for 1,000 years in torment before Satan joins them should be evidence enough that everyone cast into the LOF will be tormented "for ever and ever".

You also have to address and explain why Jesus said this:

Matt 10:15 - Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

Matt 11:22 - But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you.

Matt 11:24 - But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”

Why would Jesus say the judgment of S & G on the day of judgment (GWT) be MORE BEARABLE/TOLERABLE than for the religious and highly moral people of His own day?

If everyone is annihilated when cast into the LOF, then there won't be any difference for anyone.

I read an article that said Edom hated Israel more than the surrounding countries did. all the surrounding countries hated Israel so they all shared the name edom (in a general since) because they were all haters of Israel so the name edom describe other nations close to Israel as well

[teddyv]

33 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The difference between Isa 34:10 and Rev 20:10 is the specificity in Rev.  When "day and night" precedes "for ever and ever" you can bet it means never ending.  "day and night" is 24 hours, or 1 day.  So "for ever and ever" means a day over and over for ever.

Is there any scholarly support for this? I don't speak the languages and would have to defer to experts in the source material. 

33 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

It is possible that Isa 34 refers to the eternity of torment on Edom.  Figurative language to indicate that Edom's punishment will be in the LOF.

Possible, of course. But it seems a case of cherry-picking where some part of the Bible is literal and other places that its not to support one's theology.

33 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The very fact that the beast and FP will have been IN the LOF for 1,000 years in torment before Satan joins them should be evidence enough that everyone cast into the LOF will be tormented "for ever and ever".

As above.

33 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

You also have to address and explain why Jesus said this:

Matt 10:15 - Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

Matt 11:22 - But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you.

Matt 11:24 - But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”

Why would Jesus say the judgment of S & G on the day of judgment (GWT) be MORE BEARABLE/TOLERABLE than for the religious and highly moral people of His own day?

Most likely hyperbole. S&G would represent the worst of sinful places to the Jews. To suggest that the current people were in a worse state is a pretty strong statement.

33 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

If everyone is annihilated when cast into the LOF, then there won't be any difference for anyone.

I get that - it certainly is something that would satisfy our desire for vengeance. I am unsure if that is how it plays out in God's position.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, teddyv said:

FreeGrace said: 

The difference between Isa 34:10 and Rev 20:10 is the specificity in Rev.  When "day and night" precedes "for ever and ever" you can bet it means never ending.  "day and night" is 24 hours, or 1 day.  So "for ever and ever" means a day over and over for ever.

Is there any scholarly support for this?

The words themselves are clear.  Yes, "forever and ever" can mean simply a long time.  But when a specific time is attached, such as "day and night", then it becomes literal.  This is simply obvious and common sense.

2 hours ago, teddyv said:

Possible, of course. But it seems a case of cherry-picking where some part of the Bible is literal and other places that its not to support one's theology.

No cherry picking.  The specificity of a 24 hour time period attached to "for ever and ever" is compelling enough.  But then, annihilationists seem to have an agenda to support their own theology.

2 hours ago, teddyv said:

Most likely hyperbole. S&G would represent the worst of sinful places to the Jews. To suggest that the current people were in a worse state is a pretty strong statement.

Well, think about it.  Did anyone from S&G actually SEE any of Jesus' miracles?  No.  But those towns in Jesus' time DID.  And they were MORE GUILTY than those of S&G on that basis alone.  And why would Jesus LIE about this?  His words could not be "hyperbole" as they are real clear.  What He said is either true or not true.  I know what I believe. 

2 hours ago, teddyv said:

FreeGrace said: 

If everyone is annihilated when cast into the LOF, then there won't be any difference for anyone.

I get that - it certainly is something that would satisfy our desire for vengeance. I am unsure if that is how it plays out in God's position.

I think Rev 20:10 is plenty clear enough.  The mere fact that 2 humans will have been IN the LOF for 1,000 years before being joined by Satan is proof enough that humans will suffer along with the fallen angels.