Do Christians Have Two Natures (a sin nature & a divine nature)?

[Vine Abider]

17 minutes ago, Alive said:

I was there in the 70's. It was a carnival atmosphere.

I am so thankful the Lord kept me safe.

A carnival atmosphere aptly describes that scene! 

The Lord brought me over 2000 miles to Berkeley to take part in a fellowship there, and we met in an old garage right on Telegraph Ave. about six blocks from campus (a block down from "People's Park").

What brought you to Berkeley then?

[Alive]

1 minute ago, Vine Abider said:

A carnival atmosphere aptly describes that scene! 

The Lord brought me over 2000 miles to Berkeley to take part in a fellowship there, and we met in an old garage right on Telegraph Ave. about six blocks from campus (a block down from "People's Park").

What brought you to Berkeley then?

It was the summer of my 17th year just before He rescued me. I hitched from NH because I thought it would be cool.

Quite a story of how He took care of me in a very bad time in my life.

[Vine Abider]

3 minutes ago, Alive said:

It was the summer of my 17th year just before He rescued me. I hitched from NH because I thought it would be cool.

Quite a story of how He took care of me in a very bad time in my life.

Love to hear it!  Not to derail this thread - so anything further should probably be done elsewhere . . . but in 1974 I also hitched from the east (Ohio) to there and rather miraculously found this fellowship.  I know He lead me there specifically, and kept me safe while traveling!

[Retrobyter]

On 6/17/2023 at 12:45 PM, Vine Abider said:

This is in response to a comment @Retrobyter said on another thread, that i was already planning to do a thread on (isn't it something how the Spirit brings things up like this in a couple of us at the same time?) So I read a wonderful book on this topic a while back, that really opened my eyes which was titled, "Birthright: Christian, Do You Know Who You Are?" by Needham. Anybody else read this?

But before posting the gist of this book, I thought to ask the question: Many would say Christians have both a sin nature and a divine nature, but what do you think scripture says about this (please show references)?

Shalom, Vine Abider.

I've been reading through this topic, waiting for the other shoe to drop. I honestly can't remember what I had commented prior to you starting this topic; so, I was hoping you would jog my memory! LOL!

The way I see it, is that we are no longer "sinners" but rather the hyphenated term "sinners-justified-by-God's-grace." Just as God looked at His Son hanging on the cross and saw "OUR SIN," in SPITE of His righteousness within His Son, He now sees us as "HIS SON'S RIGHTEOUSNESS" in SPITE of our sins! And, that is ALL of our sins - past, present, and future! After all, our sins were ALL in the future when the Messiah was on the cross! It's not about us; it's all about what HE has done for us!

Some people balk at the phrase "Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS)," but those are really the wrong words: It's actually "ONCE JUSTIFIED BY GOD, ALWAYS JUSTIFIED BY GOD (OJBGAJBG)!" That's really an important distinction. Being "saved," especially in the prophecies, is talking about our RESCUE when His Son returns. However, our standing with God is found rather in 2 Corinthians 5:21:

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For HE (GOD) HATH MADE HIM (THE MESSIAH) TO BE SIN FOR US, WHO KNEW NO SIN; THAT WE MIGHT BE MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM (IN THE MESSIAH).

Again, these are important distinctions. The words "reconcile," "reconciled," "reconciling," and "reconciliation" are not just rectifying our differences with God. The Greek words "καταλλάξαντος" ("having reconciled") in verse 18, "καταλλαγῆς" ("reconciliation") in verse 18, "καταλλάσσων" ("reconciling") in verse 19, "καταλλαγῆς" ("reconciliation") in verse 19, and "καταλλάγητε" ("be reconciled") in verse 20 are all forms of the verb "καταλλάσσω" and its associated noun "καταλλαγή":

2643 katallagee (katallagé) καταλλαγή, ῆς, ἡ (kat-al-lag-ay'). From katallassoo (katallassó); exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. Restoration to (the divine) favor:
-- atonement, reconciliation(-ing).

2644 katallassoo (katallassó) καταλλάσσω (kat-al-las'-so). From kata and allassoo (allassó); to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference:
-- reconcile.

2596 kata κατά (kat-ah). A primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined):
-- about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, (charita-)bly, concerning, + covered, (dai-)ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from... To, godly, in(-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of),... By, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-)on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through(-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-)to(-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where(-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution, or intensity.

236 allassoo (allassó) ἀλλάσσω (al-las'-so). From allos; to make different:
-- change.

243 allos  ἄλλος, η, ον (al'-los). A primary word; "else," i.e. Different (in many applications):
-- more, one (another), (an-, some an-)other(-s, -wise).

So, the two words mean "an exchange" and "to change mutually." Reading them in this way, we get ...

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath himself mutually exchanged places with us by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of exchanging places; 19 To wit, that God himself was in Christ, mutually exchanging places with the world, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of exchanging places.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, mutually exchange places with God. 21 For HE (GOD) HATH MADE HIM (THE MESSIAH) TO BE SIN FOR US, WHO KNEW NO SIN; THAT WE MIGHT BE MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM (IN THE MESSIAH).

I believe it should be called "the Great Exchange." It's not fair, and God's Son didn't get the better deal, but it is a JUST exchange. He took the place of our sin while we take the place of His righteousness.

[Vine Abider]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Vine Abider.

I've been reading through this topic, waiting for the other shoe to drop. I honestly can't remember what I had commented prior to you starting this topic; so, I was hoping you would jog my memory! LOL!

The way I see it, is that we are no longer "sinners" but rather the hyphenated term "sinners-justified-by-God's-grace." Just as God looked at His Son hanging on the cross and saw "OUR SIN," in SPITE of His righteousness within His Son, He now sees us as "HIS SON'S RIGHTEOUSNESS" in SPITE of our sins! And, that is ALL of our sins - past, present, and future! After all, our sins were ALL in the future when the Messiah was on the cross! It's not about us; it's all about what HE has done for us!

Some people balk at the phrase "Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS)," but those are really the wrong words: It's actually "ONCE JUSTIFIED BY GOD, ALWAYS JUSTIFIED BY GOD (OJBGAJBG)!" That's really an important distinction. Being "saved," especially in the prophecies, is talking about our RESCUE when His Son returns. However, our standing with God is found rather in 2 Corinthians 5:21:

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For HE (GOD) HATH MADE HIM (THE MESSIAH) TO BE SIN FOR US, WHO KNEW NO SIN; THAT WE MIGHT BE MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM (IN THE MESSIAH).

Again, these are important distinctions. The words "reconcile," "reconciled," "reconciling," and "reconciliation" are not just rectifying our differences with God. The Greek words "καταλλάξαντος" ("having reconciled") in verse 18, "καταλλαγῆς" ("reconciliation") in verse 18, "καταλλάσσων" ("reconciling") in verse 19, "καταλλαγῆς" ("reconciliation") in verse 19, and "καταλλάγητε" ("be reconciled") in verse 20 are all forms of the verb "καταλλάσσω" and its associated noun "καταλλαγή":

2643 katallagee (katallagé) καταλλαγή, ῆς, ἡ (kat-al-lag-ay'). From katallassoo (katallassó); exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. Restoration to (the divine) favor:
-- atonement, reconciliation(-ing).

2644 katallassoo (katallassó) καταλλάσσω (kat-al-las'-so). From kata and allassoo (allassó); to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference:
-- reconcile.

2596 kata κατά (kat-ah). A primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined):
-- about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, (charita-)bly, concerning, + covered, (dai-)ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from... To, godly, in(-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of),... By, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-)on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through(-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-)to(-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where(-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution, or intensity.

236 allassoo (allassó) ἀλλάσσω (al-las'-so). From allos; to make different:
-- change.

243 allos  ἄλλος, η, ον (al'-los). A primary word; "else," i.e. Different (in many applications):
-- more, one (another), (an-, some an-)other(-s, -wise).

So, the two words mean "an exchange" and "to change mutually." Reading them in this way, we get ...

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath himself mutually exchanged places with us by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of exchanging places; 19 To wit, that God himself was in Christ, mutually exchanging places with the world, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of exchanging places.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, mutually exchange places with God. 21 For HE (GOD) HATH MADE HIM (THE MESSIAH) TO BE SIN FOR US, WHO KNEW NO SIN; THAT WE MIGHT BE MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM (IN THE MESSIAH).

I believe it should be called "the Great Exchange." It's not fair, and God's Son didn't get the better deal, but it is a JUST exchange. He took the place of our sin while we take the place of His righteousness.

Really good post! This is a topic that is a favorite of mine as I think our identity in Christ is so important to know.  The NT is replete with telling us that we have died and the old nature is gone, and we are a brand new creation in Christ - however, of course, we still have the flesh with all its foul corruption (but this is not who we are).

God was so wise to deal with the old Adam nature, before putting His Spirit in the vessel (us).  And He doesn't do a halfway job of this.  Lately I've been impressed with how much Romans 6 & 7 go into this fact, and Paul uses a number of explanations in those chapters to stress to us that we have died and are no longer obligated to that old nature in any way -->  AND that we have been married and joined to a New Husband!

Sometimes saints get tripped up on their definition of "nature" I think.  That is, they see themselves sinning and think this means that they still have a sin nature, and therefore they think they must still be a sinner.  But as I read Paul's writings, I don't find this idea.  He identifies us as in Christ, in the new man,  children of God,  saints, etc. What he says about sin is it dwells in the flesh, but at no time are we told to identify our selves with this flesh.

But Paul and the other New Testament writers don't ignore the fact that we do still sometimes sin, it is just that we have a new nature in Christ now - we are saints who sometimes still sin*.  And it is this new nature we are told to focus and set our minds on, and live by this new nature - which is really just Christ in us, our only hope of glory . . . as we let Him live in and through us, He fulfills it all and is well pleasing to God!!!  

* all we are to do with sin now is confess/agree with God on it; look at His blood sacrifice in our place, and then come immediately and boldly to the throne of grace to get His help