Let's discuss Revelation 17

[douggg]

5 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

You see the two witnesses raised to heaven and "The Same Hour" the great earthquake in the 2nd woe being past, and the 3rd woe coming quickly isn't your claim of 3.5 years, that's utterly laughable even in a suggestive thought, way out of the ball park, going, going, gone!

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

John was shown what woes one and two would be in Revelation 9.   

After John is shown and told about the two witnesses, the mighty angel (of Revelation 10) tells John...

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

The last woe that John had been shown what it would be is the second woe of Revelation 9.

The mighty angel was informing John that he would would soon be shown what the third woe will be.

The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth AND sea - since the mighty angel speaking stood on both the earth and sea in Revelation 10 - is Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing his time is short.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

You, nor anyone else, is going to find the term Woe to the inhabiters of the earth - in any verses anywhere else in Revelation, following the mighty angel's statement of the third woe comes quickly.

So please stop with the idiomatic mocking me.

How long is the short time that Satan will have left is in Revelation 12:14.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The time, times, half a time of the third woe encapsulates the time of both the first and second woes.

God has given me both the ability to make charts, and to understand the scriptures.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by douggg

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

That point brother is a non-sequitur,  if the translators of Genesis had stated that the earth was created in 12 days when it really stated in 6 Evening and Mornings then you would be on the right trail, you inverted the point. You can't therefore count an Evening and Morning as 2 days can you? Its ONE DAY.

That has nothing to do with anything I said. 

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Mind you, just to be clear, the Universe was really created in 6 time periods (YOWMS) not 6 days, the first "day" (time period) lasted for 9.2 billion years, we know this because the Sun and our Earth are only 4.5 billion years old compared unto the Universe being 13.7 billion years old and 13.7 - 9.2 - 4.5. But that is a whole other issue.

Yeah, and it's wrong.

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No its actually called only the "DAILY" the word Sacrifice is added by the English translators. (just being precise here)

That's because it's not daily as in a day, it's tamid, which is the ritual of sacrifice occurring twice a day, at the 3rd and 9th hour. Tamid is a whole, every day, only when both parts are completed is there a Tamid.

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

The bolded words are not in the Hebrew transcript, the English translators added them in for context, so we need to be precise.  Now think, why would you try to limit what a DAILY NUMBER can be? It could be a once daily, a twice daily, all of our old Newspapers were called "Daily's" back in the early to mid 1900s, they ran some Daily's 2 to 3 times. A daily does not have to mean once, it can be a Daily Worship Service in a Church, that happens at 7:00 AM and that happens at 7:00 PM. BOTH happen DAILY, meaning each day has that service it never ever means once a day per se. Just like "Daily Newspapers" did not mean once a day.

It's more like two halfs of a football game. 

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No, the Daily is a TRIBUTE unto God twice daily. 

Dan. 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

No. You insist on separating them into two as if each is a whole and that is the incorrect concept. Tamid is the perpetual sacrifice not, one in the morning, one in the evening. Even though this is how the Tamid is required to be accomplished, it is but one, not two. 

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Not at the Daily Morning Oblation but at the Daily Evening Oblation. You simply overemphasize the word daily without understanding that we can have multiple things happening DAILY all on the same day. We can see an office business meeting daily at 8:00 AM and one at 6:00 PM. They can still be called Daily meetings, even though one is a heads up on the things going on that coming day and ones a WRAP UP of the process. They however ate not one business meeting. Anything that happens at a set time daily does not mean it can only happen one time daily.

You don't really read what is posted, do you? I clearly said,

23 hours ago, Diaste said:

This sacrifice is referred to as perpetual, not once a day, as in daily. Not twice a day. It is a whole consisting of two parts and is described as continuity sacrifice; called perpetual sacrifice. 

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

It is a twice daily Oblation unto God, that is why Dan. 9:20-21 calls it "specifically" the Evening Oblation. The Anti-Christ can't take away the "Sacrifice" for 2300 days, he's only the Beast for 1260 days. People who insist this is about Antiochus have gotten there by not understanding (amongst many other things) what the Daily refers unto, its a Twice Daily Tribute unto God, if you rake away 2300 of THE DAILY SACRIFICES, that would only cover 1150 days.

No, he is not the beast for only 1260 days. He is the beast from the moment he rises. He is given power to continue, or act, 42 months. There is a change in the dynamic of the beast's purpose and behavior after the deadly head wound is healed.

He can't get a deadly head would if he wasn't on the scene. And scripture says the beast already existed before the deadly head wound.  

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, if a baseball team  had a Double Header scheduled for 10 straight days and all of them got canceled, that would mean 20 games got canceled, not 10. You are conflating DAILY to only being a once a day type event, its not, it can be two, three, or more, as long as it happens every day. Daily merely describes it as a 7 day a week event, that can be 6 events that happen every day, even though they are the same type event. 

We agree on this. Though you wouldn't know it since you don't really read the posts

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Of course it is, the Daily (which happens twice a day) is TAKEN  AWAY, this Jesus Worship is forbidden for 2300 Sacrifices or 1150 days. This is pretty obvious tbh. People get too caught up into "former understandings" and realize they will have to change an entrenched position to allow for the facts to be taken in fully, so they resist the obvious many times. 

No. It's not the sacrifices. You can't divide by 2 willy nilly to fit some outlandish pretrib doctrine. The Tamid is one, two parts, and is not the Daily unless both parts are completed. 

"Of course it is, the Daily (which happens twice a day) is TAKEN  AWAY,"

You said it yourself.

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, it seems you agree this is END TIMES, so we don't have that hurdle to cross. Yet you don's seem to see that the 1150 days fits the inside of the Beast's 1260 days, whilst the 2300 days does not. Thus we use common sense and Occam's Razor here. The 2300 will not fit, the 1150 will fit. Here a little there a little to get the big picture, the Holy Spirit requires this for a reason, getting a frame out of square a smidgen can cause a disaster on down the road, as we both know, so God gave us a simple way to check this all out, to keep one writer or TRANSLATOR from veering to far off the path, all scriptures have to be used as our square so to speak. 

As I said earlier, the beast's power and authority is for 42 months, not the entire span of his existence. 42 months will not work as the only time the beast is operating since the beast must confirm a covenant for 7 years, and then at the midpoint cause the daily to cease. 2300 days fits nicely in 2520 days.

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Sacrifice is taken away at the 1290, which is 30 days before the center of the 7 year period, or 1290 days away from when Jesus shows up to end ALL THESE WONDERS, via the 2nd Coming. The temple will be built by that time, but as I mentioned (I think I did, maybe not, been a while) in the post you replied unto, the Sacrifice being TAKEN AWAY or forbidden is Jesus Worship, no one seems to grasp this. Israel repents in Zech. 13:8-9 JUST BEFORE the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1. So, they are worshiping Jesus starting with the 1335 (Two-witnesses) and then the A.C. from afar, orders the Jewish High Priest (False Prophet) to STOP Jesus worship, and then the F.P. also places the IMAGE of the Beast (E.U. President) up in the temple of God.

Yeah...doubtful.

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Think this though, how can a DEFILED TEMPLE be desecrated? If Israel are still sacrificing meat (which God sees as a defilement) and thus belittling Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, then how is the temple ever cleansed? Because 1/3 of the Jews repent, cry out unto God, in the temple starting at the 1335, which is 75 days worth of worship before they get banned from the temple at the 1290, which is 30 days before the Beast conquers Israel, at the 1260 event, each number is THAT MANY DAYS, until all of these wonders end via the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.

You're comparing apples to alligators here. The Jews don't worship Jesus, never have. The Temple of stone isn't legit since Jesus died. It's a desecration to Christ from the minute the cornerstone is laid. In fact every church building is an idol and a blasphemy to Christ, imo.

Religious ritual has always been blasphemy, doesn't stop anyone.

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

There is no way Jesus (Man in Linen) and Gabriel are speaking about a PROFANE Meat Sacrifice being taken away, they are saying the Jews who repent at the 1335, will CLEANSE the Temple by accepting Jesus as a Nation via FAITH ALONE, not by the works of Meat Sacrifices, which avail nothing. They are speaking about Jesus worship being forbidden by this False Prophet, Jewish High Priest who throws in with the Anti-Christ just like Jason did under Antiochus. Look up Jason, he is the ARCHETYPE False Prophet, and Antiochus was the ARCHETYPE Anti-Christ, so of course they had to both live at the exact same time !!

And yet it happens all the time. You are making a huge mistake thinking the Jews regard Christ as King and Lord. They don't. They never have. The Jews rejected God and Jesus multiple times in their existence. Your argument here is based on an incorrect premise, a faulty view of Jewish history and filtered through dispensationalism. It's poppycock.

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, do not even think about Meat Sacrifices brother, God did not overthrow Israel and bring them to nought because they loved the Law of Moses more than the Promised Seed only to revert to Meat Sacrifices sufficing Him in the end times. Think Jesus is that SACRIFICE brother, because that is what is forbidden. Satan loves those Meat Sacrifices, they mock Jesus.

Did you know the Jews are practicing meat sacrifices in 2023? Did you know they have the red heifer? Did you know all the material for the Temple is at the ready? 

No? Maybe you should start looking past the front doors of that blasphemous temple in which you 'worship' Jesus.

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Beast only rules for 1260 days. The Temples is cleanses at the 1335, or 1335 days before the 2nd coming. I see things in abstract brother, its my gift from God. 

Probably far from scriptural truth. No, it is. Way off. 

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

God bless, I understand things taught of old seems to confuse the truth at times. 

Pfft. Manipulation. Again. 

[douggg]

34 minutes ago, Diaste said:

As I said earlier, the beast's power and authority is for 42 months, not the entire span of his existence.

The 42 months of the beast king's reign - is 42 months when he is no longer hampered by the two witnesses -  who will have left the world.

Before then, he is the beast king, but will be battling the two witnesses during the last 75 days of their 1260 day witnessing time.

I show those things on my chart below...

 

 

 

 

[Justin Adams]

All this dispensational stuff detracts from Yeshua's last words: to go spread the Gospel etc. Darby and Scofield and the rest do us all a disservice by peddling this nonsense.

Trust Jesus and do the works He commanded. No more and no less!

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

All this dispensational stuff detracts from Yeshua's last words: to go spread the Gospel etc. Darby and Scofield and the rest do us all a disservice by peddling this nonsense.

Trust Jesus and do the works He commanded. No more and no less!

I personally am not a dispensationalist.   The end times prophecies in the bible are not nonsense, but the word of God, which He has so graciously decided to share with us, a blessing for which He deserves praise and worship.

Edited July 7, 2023 by douggg

[Dennis1209]

On 6/18/2023 at 12:25 AM, Marilyn C said:

Yes, when others wake up they will join the discussion.

Now, I do see that the Vatican does have a lot of influence on some world leaders, but its philosophy is not received by most of the inhabitants of the world.

Not since the centuries of the dark ages, anyway. There is a religion reforming that will lead to persecution, prison, death, and genocide once again. Past performance and actions are the best indicators of future performance and actions.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 (KJV) The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

I would say 1.4 billion adherents of the earth’s population are influential. Add to the mix ecumenicalism of Islam, other religions, and former protesters back under the one universal umbrella is a force to be reckoned with.   

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well, that's true. Everyone but the elect will worship the beast at some point. 

They are practicing the rituals now.

 

I was just pointing out that the daily sacrifice isn't actually a daily sacrifice or an evening sacrifice, but a perpetual sacrifice consisting of the same ritual twice a day.

Could be.But with the issue concerning the conscription in Israel today though,I believe the king of Israel would prefer the king of the north give him his armed forces to practice their authority on his behalf.Perhaps go ahead and oversee his mark is given to everyone in Israel as well.

What are friends and allies for?

 

 

 

[truth7t7]

6 hours ago, douggg said:

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

John was shown what woes one and two would be in Revelation 9.   

After John is shown and told about the two witnesses, the mighty angel (of Revelation 10) tells John...

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

The last woe that John had been shown what it would be is the second woe of Revelation 9.

The mighty angel was informing John that he would would soon be shown what the third woe will be.

The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth AND sea - since the mighty angel speaking stood on both the earth and sea in Revelation 10 - is Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing his time is short.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

You, nor anyone else, is going to find the term Woe to the inhabiters of the earth - in any verses anywhere else in Revelation, following the mighty angel's statement of the third woe comes quickly.

So please stop with the idiomatic mocking me.

How long is the short time that Satan will have left is in Revelation 12:14.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The time, times, half a time of the third woe encapsulates the time of both the first and second woes.

God has given me both the ability to make charts, and to understand the scriptures.

 

 

 

 

 

I Strongly Disagree With Your Interpretation

The scripture is very clear and easy to understand, 4th grade reading comprehension 

Revelation 9:10-12 the (1st woe) is past after 5 months of man's torment, men desiring to die as death flees

The (2nd woe) passes in the great earthquake Revelation 11:13

The (3rd woe) comes "Quickly" in birth pains after the 2nd woe and is seen in the 7th Angel/Trump Revelation 11:15 at the Lord's coming in fire and final judgement (The End) in God's cup of wrath

Revelation 9:10-12KJV

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Revelation 11:13-15KJV

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Edited July 7, 2023 by truth7t7

[douggg]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

I Strongly Disagree With Your Interpretation

The scripture is very clear and easy to understand, 4th grade reading comprehension 

Revelation 9:10-12 the (1st woe) is past after 5 months of man's torment, men desiring to die as death flees

The (2nd woe) passes in the great earthquake Revelation 11:13

The (3rd woe) comes "Quickly" in birth pains after the 2nd woe and is seen in the 7th Angel/Trump Revelation 11:15 at the Lord's coming in fire and final judgement (The End) in God's cup of wrath

Revelation 9:10-12KJV

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Revelation 11:13-15KJV

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

What woe number is this?

Revelation 12:

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Who is falling star in Revelation 9:1 who starts the first woe by opening the bottomless pit?

 

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

 

The third woe is Satan cast down to earth.   The span of the third woe, the time/times/half time, contains the first woe and the second woe.