Justice Vs. Vengeance

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

19 minutes ago, Mozart's Starling said:

The idea those who offend you have to repent for you to be able to get over it

We are to forgive them whether they repent or not. 

If we do not forgive others of their sins, the Lord won't forgive us for our sins (Matthew 6:15) which is one of the proof texts that demonstrate that OSAS is not true... either that or Jesus wasn't telling the truth which is apparently what some folks believe.

This doesn't mean we have to be a door mat and allow people to keep doing us dirty... sometimes we have to depart from people and pray for them and love them from afar.

 

[Mozart's Starling]

1 minute ago, Stan Murff said:

We are to forgive them whether they repent or not. 

If we do not forgive others of their sins, the Lord won't forgive us for our sins (Matthew 6:15) which is one of the proof texts that demonstrate that OSAS is not true... either that or Jesus wasn't telling the truth which is apparently what some folks believe.

This doesn't mean we have to be a door mat and allow people to keep doing us dirty... sometimes we have to depart from people and pray for them and love them from afar.

 

Yeah you don't roll over to abuse or dwell in it. Just asking for clarification.

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

Jesus was so clear about this.... one has to get help from the devil to misunderstand it!

Matthew 6:14-15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, JimmyB said:

Forgiveness is one thing, application is another.  Again, ALL SINS have been forgiven because of Christ's sacrifice.  To think otherwise is a very serious error.

However, the application of that forgiveness is dependent on the action of a person. 

Colossians 1:13-14, "For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." 

Ephesians 1:7, "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.

1 John2:2, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

John 3:16-18, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

Shalom, JimmyB.

What is "forgiveness" without application?! "Forgiveness" is defined as "the action or process of forgiving or being forgiven: she is quick to ask forgiveness when she has overstepped the line." It is the PERSON who is FORGIVEN, not the SIN!

"Forgive" is defined as ...

"stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake: I don't think I'll ever forgive David for the way he treated her. 

• (usually be forgiven) stop feeling angry or resentful toward someone for (an offense, flaw, or mistake): 

[no object] :  he was not a man who found it easy to forgive and forget | they are not going to pat my head and say all is forgiven. 

• cancel (a debt): he proposed that their debts should be forgiven. 

• used in polite expressions as a request to excuse or regard indulgently one's foibles, ignorance, or impoliteness: you will have to forgive my suspicious mind. 

PHRASES 

one could be forgiven for doing something (also one may be forgiven for doing something) it would be understandable if one behaved or responded in a particular way, considering the circumstances: with the plaster palm trees, you could be forgiven for thinking you were on Hollywood Boulevard. 

DERIVATIVES 

forgiver noun 

ORIGIN Old English forgiefan, of Germanic origin, related to Dutch vergeven and German vergeben, and ultimately to for- and give."

One forgives a PERSON for a wrong committed; so, the application is BOUND in the meaning of the word!

So, as long as there is a forgiveness of sins, the INDIRECT OBJECT of the SINNER is implied within the definition, and HE (or SHE) is the recipient of that forgiveness.

And, not everyone is forgiven for their sins; some refuse God's help!

I think you mean that "all sins MAY be forgiven," not that they already ARE forgiven.

[Retrobyter]

On 9/5/2023 at 12:03 PM, JimmyB said:

"Through Jesus all sins are forgiven, but sinners are not forgiven, they will be judged and punished  unless they repent" is self-contradictory!  

a) "Through Jesus all sins are forgiven"

b) "... but sinners are not forgiven".

So which is it, a or b?

"We like God must have a forgiving nature, ready and willing to forgive those who are sorry for the hurt/harm they have done us." is 100% correct!

Again, we forgive others because God forgave us while we were still sinners!  Our forgiving others is not dependent on whether they repent or not!

 

b.

[Retrobyter]

21 hours ago, Mozart's Starling said:

Right. The idea those who offend you have to repent for you to be able to get over it is uh...........well I don't have kind words. You pray they come to God and that they see the light. Not that they personally satisfy the grudges you clearly hold lol. And what are we talking here? Being furious a stranger treated you like crap one time and you mulling over it constantly and demanding he personally come to you and apologize or you'll never accept it? Or people you know routinely abusing you etc. I need to know if this is pettiness or not lol. If you're constantly demanding repentance for every slight you're a narcciccist not a Christian. "Well one time my brother spoke to me in a way I percieved to be too harshly! How dare he I will never accept it without a personal apology!"type stuff or like serious deep wounding sins?

Shalom, @Mozart's Starling.

Let's remember to keep these matters separate. What God does and what man does are entirely separate! Paul said,

Romans 3:1-6 (KJV)

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

And, Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") said,

John 5:19-29 (KJV)

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life (at the beginning of the Millennium); and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (at the Great White Throne judgment after the Millennium)."

(The black portion I added because it is how it fits with 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 and Revelation 20.)

God, of course, is higher than human beings; therefore, He has the right to "vengeance" and He will judge the world through His Son, Yeeshuwa` the Messiah to be King, who will then be King of kings - World Emperor

We have to be willing to forgive others like God has forgiven us our greater debt! But, God has made the payment for one's debt available, and any who REFUSE that payment freely given will suffer the consequences. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance, but He's not going to FORCE them to repent! That's ON THEM! He's merely provided the way they can have His grace.

If they continue to "try to make it all on their own," they will die in their sins. And, that's not GOD'S fault!

Edited September 19, 2023 by Retrobyter
to fix a misspelling

[JimmyB]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, JimmyB.

What is "forgiveness" without application?! "Forgiveness" is defined as "the action or process of forgiving or being forgiven: she is quick to ask forgiveness when she has overstepped the line." It is the PERSON who is FORGIVEN, not the SIN!

"Forgive" is defined as ...

"stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake: I don't think I'll ever forgive David for the way he treated her. 

• (usually be forgiven) stop feeling angry or resentful toward someone for (an offense, flaw, or mistake): 

[no object] :  he was not a man who found it easy to forgive and forget | they are not going to pat my head and say all is forgiven. 

• cancel (a debt): he proposed that their debts should be forgiven. 

• used in polite expressions as a request to excuse or regard indulgently one's foibles, ignorance, or impoliteness: you will have to forgive my suspicious mind. 

PHRASES 

one could be forgiven for doing something (also one may be forgiven for doing something) it would be understandable if one behaved or responded in a particular way, considering the circumstances: with the plaster palm trees, you could be forgiven for thinking you were on Hollywood Boulevard. 

DERIVATIVES 

forgiver noun 

ORIGIN Old English forgiefan, of Germanic origin, related to Dutch vergeven and German vergeben, and ultimately to for- and give."

One forgives a PERSON for a wrong committed; so, the application is BOUND in the meaning of the word!

So, as long as there is a forgiveness of sins, the INDIRECT OBJECT of the SINNER is implied within the definition, and HE (or SHE) is the recipient of that forgiveness.

And, not everyone is forgiven for their sins; some refuse God's help!

I think you mean that "all sins MAY be forgiven," not that they already ARE forgiven.

Then why does the phrase "your sins are forgiven" appear seven times in the gospels?

Matthew 9:2, Matthew 9:5, Mark 2:5, Mark 2:9, Luke 5:20, Luke 5:23, Luke 7:48

And there are more...

John 20:23, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Acts 26:18, "...to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’ "

Romans 4:7, "“Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered ..."

1 John 2:12, "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven on account of his name. "

It's pretty clear to me that sins are forgiven.

JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS SO THAT ALL SINS ARE FORGIVEN.  

 

[JimmyB]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

b.

See my previous post...