The Difficult Sayings Of Jesus

[Anne2]

Just now, Mr. M said:

I understand, and so state that the observance of the Lord's Table

is not merely a symbolic representation, it is an act of obedience

by which we enter corporately into His Presence, as He promised,

"when 2 or more"...even as participating in water baptism is not

merely a symbolic act. No act of obedience to the Word of Christ

is without Power, and God's Purpose.

If we look at Passover , it seems the ritual aspect including the sacrifice makes it a memorial. 

[Mr. M]

6 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

He said it was the blood of the new covenant. My point was to your question to me. That question is a TWO WAY STREET. Finding it strange can be applied both ways. 

The blood made efficacious by the Eternal Spirit.

Hebrews 9:

12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 

13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 

14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 

15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 

24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 

25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another—

11 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

However I think a clue to this might be, let me repeat might be, helped in looking at the original passover lamb, and the memorial of it in Judaism. Also why is it the topic of the thread?  

To understand the blood of the covenant requires more than the memorial of Passover, but the day of Atonement as well. This requires sanctification in the sound understanding that dissolves all doubts.

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

[Mr. M]

10 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

If we look at Passover , it seems the ritual aspect including the sacrifice makes it a memorial. 

Yes it is indeed identified as a Memorial, but to what?

Exodus 12:

26 And it shall be, when your children say to you,

‘What do you mean by this service?’ 

27 that you shall say, ‘It is the Passover sacrifice of the Lord,

who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt

when He struck the Egyptians and delivered our households.

So the people bowed their heads and worshiped.

This established the consecration of the first born.

Exodus 13:1 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 

2 Consecrate to Me all the firstborn, whatever opens

the womb among the children of Israel, 

both of man and beast; it is Mine.

 

[garee]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

You know, I went back and forth with this one being literal or not, and my last conclusion is that it's a parable that reflects lots of realities. Hell and torment for the lost is real. God's place for believers is real.

What doesn't seem real

- Communication from Hades to where Abraham was.

-The ability for those in hades to see others in paradise

Let's take a look. I'll underline the things that I think make it a parable. This seems to be a parable that reflects the stark contratst between the saved and the unsaved.

There is some issue in understanding the message. Rich people don't go to hell because they are rich. More likely the rich man put all of his attention away from God and into material things while he was alive. Gave no thoughts to God or to following him.

The unsaid implications to Lazarus were, that he must have been a follower of God, even though he was impoverished, because poor people don't automatically go to heaven either.

Luke 16:19-31

New International Version

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Defiantly a parable written in a series. Many one right after the other hiding the understanding from the lost revealing it to believers. Like in chapter 14 the beginning of the series of using the rich mammon to represent the wisdom of this world that opposes the wisdom of God hid in the parable   

The theme throughout. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.  Chapter 16;13 the key "no man can serve two good teaching masters" the word of God and the traditons of men necromancy communing  with the dead relative of men or renown called patron saints by some .. (3500 official and rising)   

Three  times from verse 13 through chapter 16 he uses the authority of his word the "law and the prophets" or Moses and the prophets in one place Moses (law) and Elisa (prophets)  to signify  as a metaphor as it is written (sola scriptura) three time the unbeliever challenged the form of communion  all things writen in the law and prophets.

In the end he informed the unbelieving world  that even if they see one raise from the dead. . . he would not give them the faith to believe  .

Believing God is a works of God from faith to the same unseen things of God.

Parables teach us how to walk by faith after the unseen things of God 

  

 

Luke 16: 13-17 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Luke 16: 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (God's living word) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[Anne2]

10 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Yes it is indeed identified as a Memorial, but to what?

Exodus 12:

26 And it shall be, when your children say to you,

‘What do you mean by this service?’ 

27 that you shall say, ‘It is the Passover sacrifice of the Lord,

who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt

when He struck the Egyptians and delivered our households.

So the people bowed their heads and worshiped.

This established the consecration of the first born.

Exodus 13:1 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 

2 Consecrate to Me all the firstborn, whatever opens

the womb among the children of Israel, 

both of man and beast; it is Mine.

 

Heb 12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

No. I do doubt to judge the entire historical Churches, as unspiritual know nothings, as I have not such confidence in my own thoughts

That is why we are to let Scripture renew our minds... and not self or world we are in...

[Anne2]

4 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

That is why we are to let Scripture renew our minds... and not self or world we are in...

I just cannot dismiss the entire Church Enoob. We are not talking about just Rome, Greece, Asiatics, (the Quartodeciman's were eucharistic, the only issue was which day to do it, these were pro Jewish Churches) etc. We are also talking reformers. That is not something Expedient IMO. I may not agree here and there on things out of conscience but to dismiss in broad sweep? No, not being able to accept something based on conscience is one thing. If that makes me not "spiritual enough" in your eyes then so be it.

[enoob57]

5 hours ago, garee said:

In the end he informed the unbelieving world  that even if they see one raise from the dead. . . he would not give them the faith to believe  .

Quote

In the end he informed the unbelieving world  that even if they see one raise from the dead

I see this this here
Luke 16:29-31
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
KJV
As faith comes from truth entering into one's being
'They have Moses and the prophets' = Word of God
Rom 10:17
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
KJV
but nowhere do I find God give it in any other way as you suggest 
 

Quote

he would not give them the faith to believe

God has given His Word to the world and by said Word all may believe and receive the faith from said Word...

[enoob57]

3 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

I just cannot dismiss the entire Church Enoob. We are not talking about just Rome, Greece, Asiatics, (the Quartodeciman's were eucharistic, the only issue was which day to do it, these were pro Jewish Churches) etc. We are also talking reformers. That is not something Expedient IMO. I may not agree here and there on things out of conscience but to dismiss in broad sweep? No, not being able to accept something based on conscience is one thing. If that makes me not "spiritual enough" in your eyes then so be it.

You will when His Word is fulfilled...
Isa 65:17, 1Cor 13:8, Rev 21:1-5

 

The only control satan has is this world and the things within it... that is why God has done as Scripture says He will do...

[enoob57]

15 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

If that makes me not "spiritual enough" in your eyes then so be it.

This from your own assessment... not anything I have said... Scripture is the only thing we are to fill ourselves with ... nothing else to renew our minds according to Scripture...