Believers' Accountability and the Judgement Seat of Christ

[Mr. M]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

Impurities--- dross --- are drawn out with the lead, floating on the surface. The Craftsman removes the dross during this process, purifying the desired material along the way. The end result?

Ezekiel 22:18 Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to Me; they are all bronze, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of a furnace; they have become dross from silver. 

When I consider the dross of silver:bronze, tin, iron, and lead;

these all have intrinsic value in their own right. The Spirit 

informs us that in Christ we must not only overcome faults,

we must surrender our strengths.

2 Co 12:

9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

When the Holy Spirit begins to reveal to us how often we have

acted and spoken in our own ability, we are prepared to know 

the power of silence.

Isaiah 41:1 Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew their strength: let them come near; then let them speak: let us come near together to judgment.

[Vine Abider]

52 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

¹² So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. [emphasis added]

Unless I missed it, thus far, I have not seen an explanation of what we will be giving an account of in our lives. We will be standing before the elevated Bema Seat, not for condemnation, but for crowns and rewards, if any.

Our confessed sins have been forgiven, are they not?

¹² As far as the east is from the west, So far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Does our account have anything to do with our sins or standing before God? I think not, as we are justified to the Father through our Savior and mediator, Christ Jesus, one of His own. It is some judgment we face. I favor the following explanation:

The Judgment Seat of Christ is that place where Christians will have their works judged by the Lord. It has nothing to do with our sins, since Christ has paid for them and they can be held against us no more (Rom. 8:1). The word for "judgment seat" in the Greek is bema, meaning the place where the judges stood at the athletic games. If during the games they saw an athlete break the rules, they immediately disqualified him. At the end of the contests, the judges gave out the rewards (see 1 Cor. 9:24–27).^[1]

The way I picture giving my account: Did the Holy Spirit direct me to do a good work, and presented me with opportunities to share the Gospel, and I ignored it or said no? Dennis, provide an account of those and explain yourself. Dennis, when you did these public good works, you called fruit. Did you do them for MY honor, praise, and glory, or your own? Just as I thought, filthy rags, wood, hay, and stubble. Let us test and refine them with fire to see if they stand the test. I suffered a significant loss of crowns, potential rewards, and kingdom responsibilities.

Still, the Lord is omniscient, knowing the beginning from the end and me from the world's foundation. The Lord knows me better than I know myself. I will not be lying, covering up, or embellishing anything standing before Jesus the Judge, nothing but the whole truth of my actions or inaction.

If the above is scripturally sound and correct, the way I understand giving an account. Then a question comes to mind:

What is the reason, purpose, or benefit of giving my verbal testimony of my failures? Is disobeying the Holy Spirit to act (works) not sin? Is doing good works on our own, not called by the Holy Spirit to do so, filthy rags?

Throughout the Bible, the Lord is a legalist; there are laws in heaven and earth. For fairness, righteousness, and legalities, sins and rewards must be judged, with the appropriate penalties or prizes administered. I wonder if 2-3 witnesses will be involved.

 

 

 

---

^[1] Wiersbe, Warren W. The Bible Exposition Commentary. Vol. 1. Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1996. Print.

Yes, as in first Corinthians 3:12-15 the judging fire is concerning the believer's works. I think this is the same with the parable of the faithful and unfaithful servants - they are already servants of their master, so the question is, "What did you do with what I gave you?"  If they were deemed to have been faithful in just a "few things" they are praised and rewarded. However, the slothful servant received a reprimand and resulting consequence (I don't believe that consequence was loss of salvation).

And yes, Jesus paid the ultimate price for removing our condemnation and sin.  However, if sin is allowed to remain and be practiced in our lives, it could hinder us.  As Paul says in Hebrews 12:1-2, "let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes only on Jesus . . ."  So therefore, sin can ensnare us and keep us from running well if we let it.

[Mr. M]

3 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Yes, as in first Corinthians 3:12-15 the judging fire is concerning the believer's works. I think this is the same with the parable with the faithful and unfaithful servants - they are already servants of their master, so the question is, "What did you do with what I gave you?"  If they were deemed to have been faithful in just a "few things" they are praised and rewarded. However, the slothful servant received a reprimand and resulting consequence (I don't believe that consequence was loss of salvation).

And yes, Jesus paid the ultimate price for removing our condemnation and sin.  However, if sin is allowed to remain and be practiced in our lives, it could hinder us.  As Paul says in Hebrews 12:1-2, "let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, let us fix our eyes on Jesus . . ."  So therefore, sin can ensnare us and keep us from running well if we let it.

Matthew 12:

36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak,

they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 

37 For by your words you will be justified,

and by your words you will be condemned.

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all.

If any man offend not in word, the same is

a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

[DeighAnn]

29 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

¹² So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. [emphasis added]

Unless I missed it, thus far, I have not seen an explanation of what we will be giving an account of in our lives. We will be standing before the elevated Bema Seat, not for condemnation, but for crowns and rewards, if any.

Our confessed sins have been forgiven, are they not?

Through the gift of salvation, we are saved from going to hell, the 'sin' forgiven and covered, we washed clean...so we don't pay the penalty...death in hell.  

THIS is something I would LOVE TOO SERIOUSLY BE WRONG ABOUT.  I don't think the one has to do with the other, so again, PLEASE prove me wrong, show me how being saved from the penalty ALSO negates the deed

because I don't see how that could end up as something 'JUST' for the ones who were HURT by the deeds ESPECIALLY IF we did NOTHING to fix it or didn't follow Gods prescribed 'fix'... 


So, I guess my question is DOES the gift of SALVATION NEGATE the deed or the penalty for the deed or both?


10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
 

11Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Only one way I know of to change that...

"And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins." 1 Peter 4:8 KJV


That is why every time I post a post I TRY try try to respect, rather than degrade, turn the other cheek, not reward evil with evil, pretend I am a duck...

...especially since there is a 'multitude of sins' I would like to have 'covered' BEFORE that day, so that I don't 'receive' in my next body things I would already like to forget about in this one...

But that's just me...somewhat of an opportunist I guess...but since He is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart and mind, I keep that close to me all the time.  I wonder how many words I have written then erased, repented of before they ever got to be pondered.  I would think it was far more than posted.  

crucify the flesh daily...the Spirit makes it easier all the time

 

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

The crucible is our time upon this earth, and the fervent heat are those trials and tribulations we go through.

I like the way the Berean Study Bible puts it:

1Pe 1:7  so that the proven character of your faith—more precious than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

I have heard preaching that asserts it is the testing of faith that is more precious than gold, rather than faith itself. 

Maybe there was some discussion about this when Peter's first epistle first circulated, which Peter resolved in his second letter.

2Pe 1:1  Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

The foreknown faithful of God are those who taste testing and trial, and are finally refined by it, to enter eternity faithfully triumphant and true.

I got a bit poetic on you there, @Marathoner  

[DeighAnn]

3 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

The foreknown faithful of God are those who taste testing and trial, and are finally refined by it, to enter eternity faithfully triumphant and true.

If that is you getting poetic, you should do it way more often.  Just sayin...

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

Metallurgical analogies in scripture abound, leaving me with this impression: 

The fire of the Lord is a purifying fire. Thus, He refines us as silver is refined in the furnace. This is clearly the reference with regard to the judgment of Christ all of us will be subjected to: our works shall be subjected to the fire.

Many are reluctant to delve into spiritual matters with regard to our walk with the Lord, and I understand why. It's all too easy for others to misunderstand or misconstrue what is shared. We don't want that happen, so we don't go there. I get it.

I'll do it anyway. I have written about how I fell away, and how everything changed at the conclusion of the fiery trial (hmm, there's fire again). That was when I was broken and defeated, having come to the end of myself as it were, and this was the fruit of the Lord's discipline. He delivered this with love but He was very stern with me, brother. It was hard.

It was for life so I wouldn't find myself dismayed when I stand with you all before Him. I didn't understand what He expected of me so of course I wandered astray, left to my own devices. Everything was revealed to me on that day when I was going to die. That was the end of the fiery trial.

After the Spirit revealed the sum total of discipline I was subjected to, and how He never ceased from loving me as His own possession, I got it. Yes, I finally got it. This was how it was meant to be. I needed to be broken and defeated first. So...

Understanding the nature of His calling and what the Lord expected of me, I offered my life to Him. It was all that I had, and He deserved nothing less than the very best I could give. He gave Himself to me after all.

This pleased the Lord greatly. All of those years... the idiotic things I had done... the predicaments I had gotten myself into... and all of my grief and shame having fallen flat on my face over and over... the Lord bid me to cast it all before Him. This life I had offered to Him joined what I cast before the Lord.

It was burned with His fire, my friend. His fire consumed everything to ashes, but something remained in the ruin: the life I had offered to Him, and there were works which remained unscathed by the inferno.

That which was unharmed by the fire was purified like a garment of white, spotless and clean. This is the garment the Lord purified for me. As for the rest?

Ashes in the wind. He restored me, healed me, and promised that so long as I listen to His voice and cling to Him, I will do well. Jeremiah 7:23, brother. It's why I'm so fond of that passage. 

The same is true for us all. His discipline is for life, not death. 

“MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,

NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE PUNISHED BY HIM;

FOR WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,

AND HE PUNISHES EVERY SON WHOM HE ACCEPTS.”

"For our God is a consuming fire."

Hebrews 12:5-6 & 29

[Dennis1209]

16 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Yes, as in first Corinthians 3:12-15 the judging fire is concerning the believer's works. I think this is the same with the parable of the faithful and unfaithful servants - they are already servants of their master, so the question is, "What did you do with what I gave you?"  If they were deemed to have been faithful in just a "few things" they are praised and rewarded. However, the slothful servant received a reprimand and resulting consequence (I don't believe that consequence was loss of salvation).

And yes, Jesus paid the ultimate price for removing our condemnation and sin.  However, if sin is allowed to remain and be practiced in our lives, it could hinder us.  As Paul says in Hebrews 12:1-2, "let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes only on Jesus . . ."  So therefore, sin can ensnare us and keep us from running well if we let it.

I am thinking of this also:

Luke 12:48 (KJV) But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Emphasis added.

 

[AdHoc]

19 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I think we have discussed this before; with my memory, I could use a refresher. I will relate the following to the Bema Seat judgment and the fruits, or no fruits and rewards of our labor.

Salvation is set apart from works and fruit-bearing; as we all know, works have not and cannot save anyone. Are you saying one with genuine saving faith (a Christian) earns his or her way into the Kingdom of Christ (the millennium) as a reward?

I recall some of your thoughts on this subject but refresh my memory and those reading this thread.

Jesus talked about His kingdom in parables, and I am pointing to the parable of the talents (Matt. 25). The example of one of them who hid and buried his one talent is named a servant; he had the fear of his Lord. The relationship between Master and servant was severed with what God had entrusted to him. The Master rejects and banishes him from His presence.

Matthew 25:30 (KJV) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

At least two views of the above verse exist, and outer darkness could be Hell. Only Jesus uses the description of “outer darkness” five times. The last use is the best description of how to interpret it:

Luke 13:28 (KJV) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

I can interpret this in two ways.

·         In comparing the rich man in Hades and Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom, the rich man could see and communicate with Abraham between a great gulf. Whether Lazarus was in Heaven or paradise below the ground is irrelevant to the discussion. The point is the rich man (lost-unsaved) was aware of everything and had all his senses and facilities. Those “thrust out” will see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. His inactivity forfeited no usury and rewards—a servant (disciple) who never knew his Master.

·         The millennial kingdom of Jesus can be described as the Kingdom of Light. Where the Lord physically is and reigns is Heaven. I can also interpret outer darkness as being excluded (cast out) from participating in the millennial reign. If one is “thrust out” of somewhere, one has to be there initially before being kicked out.

If this is bullet number two, I surmise this takes place at the Bema Seat, and a loss of the reward to participate in the kingdom of Christ for one thousand years. This servant is worthless.

According to Matthew 24:51 (KJV) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In Matthew chapter 24, the fate of the wicked and useless servants is answered. Cut him asunder may mean severely disciplined, cut off, or maybe be literal.

Summarizing: If we are standing before the Bema Seat, it is not for condemnation but for rewards or lack thereof. Crowns, if any, will be awarded and appointments for service in the Kingdom of Jesus (rewards). Outer darkness is the opposite of light; therefore, I believe it references Hell, only used by Jesus five times.

If it is works and fruit that earn our way into the kingdom of God, the presence of Jesus, how do we quantify how many or what works and fruit?

 

Thank you for your reply. Instead of point by point answers, I will lay forth entry into the Kingdom of Heaven. The first thing, I judge, is to define the Kingdom. In Genesis 1:26-28 God made man to rule the earth, sea and sky and all that was in them. That he had to "subdue" implies that some sort of rebellion or disorder/discord was in progress. The councils of God are immutable. The object of subjugation and rule for men is the earth.

The previous governor, an angel of some repute (Isa.14, Ezek.28), convinced the man and his wife that God was not serious. The disobedience of man had triple consequences:
1. The man offended God. Such a slight of so lofty a Person justifies seriously felt retribution
2. The man was poisoned by the fruit of that Tree and was corrupted by it. His flesh became the source of trespasses and would eventually die
3. The man gave away his authority. The previous governor says that the earth was "delivered" to him (Lk.4:6). The inspired record says that this was a "temptation". If it were not true then it was no temptation and scripture would be untrue.

The recovery of man was also threefold.
1. The man needed his earned retribution to be payed by an eligible man
2. The man needed a fresh chance to eat from the correct Tree and so complete God's requirement to take the divine life into him and rid himself of corruption
3. The man needed to overturn his reputation as an evil steward who gave away his inheritance, and accept any training needed to resume his God-given rank of governor of the earth

The first point is achieved by AN-OTHER and lies fully outside the capabilities of the man. The man, to benefit from Jesus' substitutionary death. God is willing to impute this substitutionary retribution if the man BELIEVES in the One Who effected it

The second point lies outside the capabilities of the man. Just as Israel were bitten by poisonous serpents and the venom coursed through their inward parts to end in death, so all men are corrupt and end in death (Rom.5:12-17, 6:23). Again, God, once He has approved the substitution, imputes DIVINE LIFE to those who BELIEVE in the brass serpent on a pole.

The third point places the man, fully equipped with all that pertains to godliness (2nd Pet.1:3). The man must now undergo the discipline of applying this ETERNAL LIFE to his character (Rom.8:29). His goal is to be IN the image of Christ, IN love with Christ and IN obedience to the commands issued to him. The man has the Holy Spirit to apply this all, but he has to cooperate. He must show, BY WORKS, that he will be a good manager of God's affairs ON EARTH.

God respects the man's free will so He sets a time for the man to reach the given standards AND THEN THE MAN IS CALLED TO SHOW HIS WORKS BEFORE A DIVINE TRIBUNAL

God, knowing the man's character and the rigors of being transformed, sets before the man AN INCENTIVE. If the man is diligent and sets God's purposes before his own he will be REWARDED. This reward is to be crowned co-king with Jesus of His goods (the earth), to be famous, and to enter Christ's JOY. If the man is not prepared to be trained by his cooperation, he will not only forfeit the reward, but be BANISHED from all privileges AND Christ's JOY. The resulting AGONY and sense of loss, PLUS open chastisement (cut asunder and stripes) will produce the weeping and gnashing of teeth. Because he is found unworthy to be a co-king, he is cast away from the activities of the Kingdom and away from Christ.

The councils of God are immutable. If Romans 8:29 says that God predestined him to be conformed to the image of Christ - HE WILL BE. But the age has changed. It is now the age of the rod of iron. So his training will continue under DURESS. God's school always prevails. By he end of the 1,000 years set aside as REWARD for the others, the slothful Christian will be up to standard.

In all this, the FIRST TWO POINTS ABOVE are NOT overturned. Why? Because they were not his WORKS to lose. They were gotten by FAITH in AN-OTHER'S WORKS. Christ PAID and God APPROVED. To say that the man can overturn Christ's works is folly. And the Father, once having approved the set price, is righteous to UPHOLD CHRIST'S WORKS. No-one can defy the Father. If He approves something, who or what can overrule Him?

[DeighAnn]

10 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

“MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,

NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE PUNISHED BY HIM;

FOR WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,

AND HE PUNISHES EVERY SON WHOM HE ACCEPTS.”

"For our God is a consuming fire."

Hebrews 12:5-6 & 29

It might just be me (probably is) but it seems to lose a bit in translation...
 

5 and you have forgotten the exhortation that you as to sons addresses
Son of Me not regard lightly [the] discipline of [the] Lord
nor faith by Him being reproved

6 Whom for He loves [the] Lord disciplines
He scourges now every son whom He receives

7 As discipline endure,
as sons you is treating God,
what for son [is there] whom not disciplines [his] father?

8 If however without you are of discipline
of which partakers they have become all,
then illegitimate children and not sons you are


 

 3146. mastigoó 
Strong's Concordance
mastigoó: to scourge
Original Word: μαστιγόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: mastigoó
Phonetic Spelling: (mas-tig-o'-o)
Definition: to scourge
Usage: I flog, scourge, the victim being strapped to a pole or frame; met: I chastise.
HELPS Word-studies
3146 mastigóō – properly, to whip (scourge) with a mastigos (see 3148 /mástiks, a "whip"); to "flog (scourge) a victim, strapped to a pole or frame" (Souter); (figuratively) God sending severe pain in the best eternal interests of the believer (see Heb 12:6)

Reflection: As in the Lord's dealing with Job, God's purifying love is all-wise when we experience temporal suffering. Hence, it always works for our greater eternal gain as we live in faith (Ro 8:18-25,38). For example, God authorized an incredible amount of earthly pain (bringing heavenly gain) in the lives of Jeremiah and John the Baptist.

All in order for us to share of His holiness…

It has been a hard work for me to be a son of God albeit a LABOR OF LOVE.