Believers' Accountability and the Judgement Seat of Christ

[Dennis1209]

16 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Let's get Isaiah behind us. The Church is not revealed in the Old Testament. All prophecy pertain either to Israel or the Nations. As the Covenants and the prophets tell (or foretell), Israel will be forgiven, reconciled and restored to leading Nation and host of messiah - Emmanuel. Isaiah foretells of conditions on earth during this glorious time. The animals are subdued and no danger exists for people in general.

But there is another side to this seeming paradise. When our Lord Jesus came the first time, His announcer John Baptist, He Himself and Hid disciples all taught the same thing - "The Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND." Israel, the "children of the Kingdom" refuse the King and His Kingdom. In Matthew 21:43 our Lord declares that the Kingdom, once the inheritance of Israel, is ripped away from them.

This devastating loss has not sunk in yet as they still await their Messiah and regard Jesus as imposter. But when the Kingdom is set up at our Lord's second coming, it will dawn on Israel what they forfeited. The regret and sense of loss is too great and Israel will break down in despair. You had won the lottery but lost your ticket. The $10 million was yours - but now out of reach. That explains the weeping and gnashing of teeth - signs of extreme loss. But where and/or what is "Outer Darkness"?

First, we must be true to the words. "Outer" has two meanings. It can mean "the outside" as opposed to inside. Or it could mean the furthest from a center. The Greek word in Matthew 8, 22 & 25 is the second meaning. In "comparative degree" it is the furthest from the center. Any Kingdom has three types of people. (i) the ruling class or family, (ii) the servants of the ruling class, and (iii) those ruled, or, the SUBJECTS.

The ruling family have all privileges and luxuries. The servants live in the palace with its luxury and status, but carry no title. They range from the "Esquire of the body" - the man closest to the king, to those who tend the swine. This will be Israel's position. A chosen Nation that failed to recognize their position and privilege. In it will be some glorious and some disdained (Dan.12:2). Notice Israel's future in Zachariah's prophecy in Luke 1 - Israel forgiven, restored to their land, safe and prosperous BUT SERVANTS. They had it ona plate to be the RULING CLASS, but ended as bond-servants - servants with no rights. So close to the King - but oh so far.

The Christian fares worse. By BIRTH (Jn.3:3-5, 1:12-13) the Christian is "heir to the promises" (Gal.3:29). He is royalty by BIRTH AND ADOPTION. Although he also SERVES as co-king with Christ, he has immeasurable status. He is guest at banquets with Christ. He is not wealthy. He OWNS EVERYTHING (Matt.24:47, Rom.8:32 etc.). He manages a city or cities and people bow to him/her (Rev.3:9). But the Christian who is found NOT WORTHY loses it all. He is cast to the "outer" most point from Christ and the sphere of His rule. He becomes a laughing stock for the Nations he should have ruled but is now lower than the Nations themselves.

He is banished to the "Outer" most point from Christ. Psalm 16 :11 says that the greatest pleasure in existence is to be in Christ's presence. But the slothful Christian is cast to the furthest point away from Christ. Our Lord said in Luke 16 that even the world's people will be praised, but he is, and was, stupid. He was like Esau. He had the birthright, but sold it for slop. When he should have been rewarded, he was CHASTISED!

Thank you!

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

v.23 is clear that ALL believers will be resurrected "when He comes".  

Except the "three gatherings" only apply to literal harvests.  There is only 1 'gathering' or resurrection.  Every mention in the Bible has "resurrection" in the singular.  

What does "those who belong to Him" refer to, if not ALL believers from Adam forward?

I can't get passt 1 Cot 15:23 and its very unambiguous language.  ALL believers will be resurrected at the Second Advent.  

In the NT, every mention of the "coming" of our Lord refers to the Second Advent.  We know this because of Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

This is unambiguous.  "He will appear a second time" is clearly speaking of His second and final coming to earth, this time as King to reign for 1,000 years.

Dan 12:2 speaks of 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.  As does John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.

We know the resurrection of the saved will be at the Second Advent, per 1 Cor 15:23 and Rev 20:4 and the resurrection of the unsaved will be 1,000 years later, which is at the end of the MK, just before the GWT judgment.  Rev 20:6-10.

Okay. Thanks for your response. I'm sure we'll both take time to consider one another's understanding.

What think ye - supposing you are correct and the harvest of dead men into life has no first fruits nor gleaning - of the fact that Christ's resurrection was only the 7th recorded in time. But most probably the eighth if you consider that for Moses to be bodily on the Mount of Transfiguration, his body is fought for and the reunited with him? And if the objection is raised that those resurrected before Jesus died again (which has no support - no, not a single verse) that affects the argument not one wit since the fact is, they were resurrected. But Moses is definitely the death knell of such and argument because Luke 20:35-36 gives Moses as a "child of the kingdom" which can never die.

Or, again, what think ye, if there be no firstfruits, why Christ is called that. And more, the firstfruits were special to God and are commanded to be brought into His House.  The general harvest, according to Matthew 13, does not go into the house but the BARN!

You are correct about the simplicity of 1st Corinthians 15:23, and I must commend you for taking this way. But there is a catch. The word "coming" is "Parousia" in the Greek and actually means "His PRESENCE". In the record of His ADVENT; our Lord, who is sitting in the Father's throne "above all heaven", starts a journey. He is "present" in heaven in Chapter 4 for His coronation, He is "present" in the clouds to meet the raptured Church (1st Thess.4) and in touching down on Mount Olives He will be "present" at Jerusalem. A little later He is seen soaked in blood at Bozrah because he was "present" there.

Any way, it was nice to swap ideas with you.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Okay. Thanks for your response. I'm sure we'll both take time to consider one another's understanding.

What think ye - supposing you are correct and the harvest of dead men into life has no first fruits nor gleaning - of the fact that Christ's resurrection was only the 7th recorded in time.

I don't think of "dead men into life" at all.  That's just too vague and doesn't actually address the reality of WHICH resurrection is being referred to.  I prefer clarity.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

But most probably the eighth if you consider that for Moses to be bodily on the Mount of Transfiguration, his body is fought for and the reunited with him? And if the objection is raised that those resurrected before Jesus died again (which has no support - no, not a single verse) that affects the argument not one wit since the fact is, they were resurrected.

I see at least 2 flaws in this thinking.  The first is obviously the contradiction with 1 Cor 15:23, and that ALL believers are resurrected at the same time, which is "when He comes" back at the Second Advent.  

The Bible actually says in unambigous words that the resurrection of Jesus is the FIRST among the singular resurrection of all believers.

Acts 26:23 -  that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Considering WHEN Dr Luke wrote that, it is clear that NONE of the mentions of people who were raised from the dead, either OT or during Christ's ministry, received a glorified body.  Or the Bible would have made that clear.  As to all the people who came back to life dying again, the Bible clearly doesn't even suggest that they didn't.  And if they did, that would directly contradict 1 Cor 15:23 and I won't ever accept any idea that contradicts any verse.

In fact, Scripture clearly shows that Lazarus was capable of death again.  

John 12:1 - Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead.

v.10 - So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well,

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

But Moses is definitely the death knell of such and argument because Luke 20:35-36 gives Moses as a "child of the kingdom" which can never die.

Even Samuel the prophet came back from the dead to talk with the knucklehead king Saul, who disobeyed God and went to a medium.  He appeared just as Saul remembered him, as he had no problem recognizing him.  

What we can't explain is how those who have died appear when their body is in the ground decaying to dust.  But we know they do have an appearance, as Samuel, Moses and Isaiah attest to, as well as the "souls under the altar" that John saw and described in Rev 6.  And I am not interested in how to explain it because it just doesn't matter.

What I know is that all believers will receive a glorified immortal resurrection body, just like Jesus' resurrected body.  In the meantime, after my death, I'll be "at home with the Lord" and will have some kind of appearance to those in heaven.  

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Or, again, what think ye, if there be no firstfruits, why Christ is called that.

Because, according to Acts 26:23, Jesus is the FIRST person to receive a glorified, immortal resurrection body.  

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

And more, the firstfruits were special to God and are commanded to be brought into His House.

This refers only to literal harvests.  Is not relevant to resurrection.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

  The general harvest, according to Matthew 13, does not go into the house but the BARN!

Doesn't matter.  Isn't relevant.  

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

You are correct about the simplicity of 1st Corinthians 15:23, and I must commend you for taking this way. But there is a catch. The word "coming" is "Parousia" in the Greek and actually means "His PRESENCE". In the record of His ADVENT; our Lord, who is sitting in the Father's throne "above all heaven", starts a journey. He is "present" in heaven in Chapter 4 for His coronation, He is "present" in the clouds to meet the raptured Church (1st Thess.4) and in touching down on Mount Olives He will be "present" at Jerusalem. A little later He is seen soaked in blood at Bozrah because he was "present" there.

Heb 9:28 tells us plainly that the Lord "will come a SECOND TIME.

"so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

If this doesn't refer to the Second Advent, then what?

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Any way, it was nice to swap ideas with you.

I always enjoy a stimulating discussion with a fellow believer!  Thanks!

[Vine Abider]

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And that is one of the scariest ones of all...the more you are given, the BETTER you better represent...

Very sobering - to be sure!

[Vine Abider]

19 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

This does not relate to just a reprimand 

verse 51 It says "the Lord shall cut him asunder". this word is defined as riped apart or cut to pieces. This does not relate to a simple reprimand Neither does it relate to anything we would see in Heaven. Neither does weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth relate to anything you would see in Heaven.

Thanks Mike, for joining the conversation!  No, I wouldn't think those things would be spoken of as someone going to "heaven" or that there would be pleasurable outcome.  I thought the post by @AdHoc addresses this well, which is copied below.

5 hours ago, luigi said:

Good morning Vine Abider,

I am pretty sure that those who will have prophesied in the Lords name, and cast out devils,  and did many wonderful works In Matthew 7:22, also believed they were "once saved, always saved". But as we can see from Matthew 7:23, they apparently did not truly believe in the Lord, but instead believed in works of iniquity.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Thanks Luigi for joining this conversation about believers' accountability!  While I see ample and solid reason for believing in eternal salvation, believers are certainly not let off the proverbial hook for what they do with the grace they've been given, while in this body. (see 2 Cor 5:10)

These verses in Matthew 7, while most troubling, do not specifically say that those ones lost their eternal salvation.  My take is they did all sorts of things in the Lord's name and for Him, but they didn't have His direction or blessing to do so.  This appears to be because they never got to know Him well, and thereby foster a good relationship where they could clearly hear His voice and do the works He wanted them to do.  He's not happy with these ones, but there's no mention of the removal of salvation or anything like that. (If the Lord after that had said something like "Depart from me into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" then I'd have to agree that there was a loss of salvation - but nothing like that is stated here.)

I would also have you look at the below explanation by @AdHoc regarding a similar passage, where the unfaithful servant receives punishment, and his explanation about what that means.

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But where and/or what is "Outer Darkness"?

First, we must be true to the words. "Outer" has two meanings. It can mean "the outside" as opposed to inside. Or it could mean the furthest from a center. The Greek word in Matthew 8, 22 & 25 is the second meaning. In "comparative degree" it is the furthest from the center. Any Kingdom has three types of people. (i) the ruling class or family, (ii) the servants of the ruling class, and (iii) those ruled, or, the SUBJECTS.

The ruling family have all privileges and luxuries. The servants live in the palace with its luxury and status, but carry no title. They range from the "Esquire of the body" - the man closest to the king, to those who tend the swine. This will be Israel's position. A chosen Nation that failed to recognize their position and privilege. In it will be some glorious and some disdained (Dan.12:2). Notice Israel's future in Zachariah's prophecy in Luke 1 - Israel forgiven, restored to their land, safe and prosperous BUT SERVANTS. They had it ona plate to be the RULING CLASS, but ended as bond-servants - servants with no rights. So close to the King - but oh so far.

The Christian fares worse. By BIRTH (Jn.3:3-5, 1:12-13) the Christian is "heir to the promises" (Gal.3:29). He is royalty by BIRTH AND ADOPTION. Although he also SERVES as co-king with Christ, he has immeasurable status. He is guest at banquets with Christ. He is not wealthy. He OWNS EVERYTHING (Matt.24:47, Rom.8:32 etc.). He manages a city or cities and people bow to him/her (Rev.3:9). But the Christian who is found NOT WORTHY loses it all. He is cast to the "outer" most point from Christ and the sphere of His rule. He becomes a laughing stock for the Nations he should have ruled but is now lower than the Nations themselves.

He is banished to the "Outer" most point from Christ. Psalm 16 :11 says that the greatest pleasure in existence is to be in Christ's presence. But the slothful Christian is cast to the furthest point away from Christ. Our Lord said in Luke 16 that even the world's people will be praised, but he is, and was, stupid. He was like Esau. He had the birthright, but sold it for slop. When he should have been rewarded, he was CHASTISED!

Thanks for going into a little detail on that!  Think about it - the kingdom will be the most amazing government the world has ever seen, and Christian overcomers are called to rule and reign with Him and even sit with Him on His throne (see Rev 2:27 & 3:21) . . . I cannot fathom how over-the-top incredible all that will be!

But just as incredible as it will be to partake in those majestic things, imagine the anguish of seeing that your works didn't show any profit, and you were told you therefore wouldn't be participating -- and then being cast out into "outer darkness" away from the Lord (and other Christians who would be enjoying their reward) for a period of time (perhaps the whole 1,000 year kingdom?).  WOW!! 

The impact of that pronouncement by the Lord would indeed cut very deep, and the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" over the utter angst of it all would be severely intense (to say the least).

[luigi]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

 

Thanks Luigi for joining this conversation about believers' accountability!  While I see ample and solid reason for believing in eternal salvation, believers are certainly not let off the proverbial hook for what they do with the grace they've been given, while in this body. (see 2 Cor 5:10)

These verses in Matthew 7, while most troubling, do not specifically say that those ones lost their eternal salvation.  My take is they did all sorts of things in the Lord's name and for Him, but they didn't have His direction or blessing to do so.  This appears to be because they never got to know Him well, and thereby foster a good relationship where they could clearly hear His voice and do the works He wanted them to do.  He's not happy with these ones, but there's no mention of the removal of salvation or anything like that. (If the Lord after that had said something like "Depart from me into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" then I'd have to agree that there was a loss of salvation - but nothing like that is stated here.)

I would also have you look at the below explanation by @AdHoc regarding a similar passage, where the unfaithful servant receives punishment, and his explanation about what that means.

 

Hello again Vine Abider,

Would not your argument be advocating not overcoming ones carnal imperfections? As far as I can see from Revelation 2 & 3, the Lord clearly indicates those who do not overcome, will not partake of any of the rewards, all of which are part of heaven.

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't think of "dead men into life" at all.  That's just too vague and doesn't actually address the reality of WHICH resurrection is being referred to.  I prefer clarity.

I see at least 2 flaws in this thinking.  The first is obviously the contradiction with 1 Cor 15:23, and that ALL believers are resurrected at the same time, which is "when He comes" back at the Second Advent.  

The Bible actually says in unambigous words that the resurrection of Jesus is the FIRST among the singular resurrection of all believers.

Acts 26:23 -  that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Considering WHEN Dr Luke wrote that, it is clear that NONE of the mentions of people who were raised from the dead, either OT or during Christ's ministry, received a glorified body.  Or the Bible would have made that clear.  As to all the people who came back to life dying again, the Bible clearly doesn't even suggest that they didn't.  And if they did, that would directly contradict 1 Cor 15:23 and I won't ever accept any idea that contradicts any verse.

In fact, Scripture clearly shows that Lazarus was capable of death again.  

John 12:1 - Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead.

v.10 - So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well,

Even Samuel the prophet came back from the dead to talk with the knucklehead king Saul, who disobeyed God and went to a medium.  He appeared just as Saul remembered him, as he had no problem recognizing him.  

What we can't explain is how those who have died appear when their body is in the ground decaying to dust.  But we know they do have an appearance, as Samuel, Moses and Isaiah attest to, as well as the "souls under the altar" that John saw and described in Rev 6.  And I am not interested in how to explain it because it just doesn't matter.

What I know is that all believers will receive a glorified immortal resurrection body, just like Jesus' resurrected body.  In the meantime, after my death, I'll be "at home with the Lord" and will have some kind of appearance to those in heaven.  

Because, according to Acts 26:23, Jesus is the FIRST person to receive a glorified, immortal resurrection body.  

This refers only to literal harvests.  Is not relevant to resurrection.

Doesn't matter.  Isn't relevant.  

Heb 9:28 tells us plainly that the Lord "will come a SECOND TIME.

"so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

If this doesn't refer to the Second Advent, then what?

I always enjoy a stimulating discussion with a fellow believer!  Thanks!

Thanks for the reply. I respect your point of view.

I have an explanation for those resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53. You might want to file it away for a future day.

 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many (Mt 27:51–53)

God is the Lord of the harvest. It is He that gives the rain and the increase. He claims the first and best tenth as His portion. This tenth is to be taken to His House and His people are to feast on it. Part of this tenth was the "Wave Offering". It was to be a "sheaf" and not only an ear. It was to be waved "on the morrow after the Sabbath". Its vigorous movement was to indicate that is represented the living.

Now, our Lord Jesus is the fulfillment of all things set forth by His Father. A study will show that our Lord Jesus fulfilled every piece of the Tabernacle, every piece of furniture of the Tabernacle, every ritual and every Offering. Our Lord Jesus is the fulfillment of the Wave Offering. But the Father required a SHEAF (Lev.23:11-12). Thus, a select company of Old Testament men and women of faith were raised up to join our Lord when He presented Himself to the Father as first fruits of the resurrection.

I made "after" bold to emphasize our Lord being FIRST. Thus, His "preeminence" remains intact. That is also why Mary may not touch Him. He says that "I have not YET ascended to my Father ... but tell my disciples that I go (now) ... ." That evening He bade His disciples to touch Him. Looks like Hebrews 9:11-12 was fulfilled as well on resurrection day.

My last observation is that while there is not a single exception to Hebrews 9:27, the Bible has a number of living people in heaven - starting with our Lord being taken BODILY up, and spending 2,000 years there - bodily. That is, scripture actively provides the fact of living men in heaven. Problematic is the theory that dead men dwell in heaven. There is not a single case recorded. There is not a single verse which plainly says so. And considering that 2nd Corinthians 5 has dead men naked, and the whole Old Testament has the dead as unclean, it is highly unlikely that God would break His own rules and have naked and unclean men near Him.

Anyway, just thinking.

Go well

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks for going into a little detail on that!  Think about it - the kingdom will be the most amazing government the world has ever seen, and Christian overcomers are called to rule and reign with Him and even sit with Him on His throne (see Rev 2:27 & 3:21) . . . I cannot fathom how over-the-top incredible all that will be!

But just as incredible as it will be to partake in those majestic things, imagine the anguish of seeing that your works didn't show any profit, and you were told you therefore wouldn't be participating -- and then being cast out into "outer darkness" away from the Lord (and other Christians who would be enjoying their reward) for a period of time (perhaps the whole 1,000 year kingdom?).  WOW!! 

The impact of that pronouncement by the Lord would indeed cut very deep, and the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" over the utter angst of it all would be severely intense (to say the least).

I think you just summarized the thread - elegantly and graciously.

[Vine Abider]

22 minutes ago, luigi said:

Hello again Vine Abider,

Would not your argument be advocating not overcoming ones carnal imperfections? As far as I can see from Revelation 2 & 3, the Lord clearly indicates those who do not overcome, will not partake of any of the rewards, all of which are part of heaven.

I'm not 100% clear about what you are asking.  (and I see the kingdom and heaven as two different things - the kingdom is a government on the earth, not up above)  Sorry, but could you perhaps rephrase your question a little?

Here's a thought to ponder.  Christianity has long been locked in an Arminian and Calvinistic thought battle as to which is right.  Regarding eternal salvation one can go to verses that seem to support one side well; one can also go to many verses which seem to support the other side well. (and both sides are pretty convinced the other is a seriously damaging "doctrine of devils")

But scripture can't be saying both are true, can it?!  No, the word of God doesn't actually support either - it supports itself.  Calvinism and Arianism were thoughts developed by men, that support what they respectively see in scripture.  The squaring off of the two, apparently conflicting ideas, I think is really a false dilemma. 

Much like the story of three blind men encountering an elephant* for the first time, I think in a certain sense both schools of thought are correct, but they aren't the complete view.

A number of believers see a third option in scripture, that embraces both sets of scriptures Calvinists and Arminians hold on this matter, and which solves the apparent dilemma.  That is what I hope to present effectively in this thread.

1. When the life of Christ is accepted into a believer, they become reborn with the eternal life of God and become an eternal child of God - partakers of the divine nature  (this should satisfy the Calvinistic thought)

2. The child of God is held accountable for things done while in their body - rewards for overcoming and being "faithful in a few things" --> or serious and severe punishment for not handling well the grace they've received (this should satisfy the Arminian thought)

3. Therefore, considering #1 & #2, the ample warnings for believers are not about loosing their life/salvation, but rather regarding them being accountable to God for their works and things done in the body after coming to know Christ.  That is, there are huge consequences for a born-again believer in not allowing Christ to grow in them and be Lord of their life ongoing.

I think if one looks at verses both sides use, you'll hopefully see that these points  give a more complete view of what scripture is saying in this matter of salvation.

I hope I've been able to make this clear and that it is edifying.

 

* One blind man, feeling a leg says "The elephant is like a tree." Another feeling the tail says, "No, it is like a rope!" The third blind man feeling the elephant's side responds, "You're both wrong - it is like a wall!"

[luigi]

12 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

I'm not 100% clear about what you are asking.  (and I see the kingdom and heaven as two different things - the kingdom is a government on the earth, not up above)  Sorry, but could you perhaps rephrase your question a little?

Here's a thought to ponder.  Christianity has long been locked in an Arminian and Calvinistic thought battle as to which is right.  Regarding eternal salvation one can go to verses that seem to support one side well; one can also go to many verses which seem to support the other side well. (and both sides are pretty convinced the other is a seriously damaging "doctrine of devils")

But scripture can't be saying both are true, can it?!  No, the word of God doesn't actually support either - it supports itself.  Calvinism and Arianism were thoughts developed by men, that support what they respectively see in scripture.  The squaring off of the two, apparently conflicting ideas, I think is really a false dilemma. 

Much like the story of three blind men encountering an elephant* for the first time, I think in a certain sense both schools of thought are correct, but they aren't the complete view.

A number of believers see a third option in scripture, that embraces both sets of scriptures Calvinists and Arminians hold on this matter, and which solves the apparent dilemma.  That is what I hope to present effectively in this thread.

1. When the life of Christ is accepted into a believer, they become reborn with the eternal life of God and become an eternal child of God - partakers of the divine nature  (this should satisfy the Calvinistic thought)

2. The child of God is held accountable for things done while in their body - rewards for overcoming and being "faithful in a few things" --> or serious and severe punishment for not handling well the grace they've received (this should satisfy the Arminian thought)

3. Therefore, considering #1 & #2, the ample warnings for believers are not about loosing their life/salvation, but rather regarding them being accountable to God for their works and things done in the body after coming to know Christ.  That is, there are huge consequences for a born-again believer in not allowing Christ to grow in them and be Lord of their life ongoing.

I think if one looks at verses both sides use, you'll hopefully see that these points  give a more complete view of what scripture is saying in this matter of salvation.

I hope I've been able to make this clear and that it is edifying.

 

* One blind man, feeling a leg says "The elephant is like a tree." Another feeling the tail says, "No, it is like a rope!" The third blind man feeling the elephant's side responds, "You're both wrong - it is like a wall!"

I make no distinction between the Lords government and heaven. From what I understand of scriptures, when the Lord returns (as a thief), he shall remove His illumination from those who have not chosen to overcome their imperfections, while rewarding those who chose to overcome their imperfections.

His saints will then be greatly illumined, while the rest of the world will be in great darkness (Isaiah 60:1-2). Those who chose not to overcome their love for their flesh and this world, will be among those outside in great darkness (Revelation 22:15).

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.