Believers' Accountability and the Judgement Seat of Christ

[phoneman-777]

1 minute ago, FJK said:

I would think this type of thing, questioning, is where the idea of Purgatory comes from?

Actually, the idea of Purgatory is what resulted from the catholic church's rejection of "salvation by blood atonement".

They teach Jesus' blood was shed only to appease the Father, not to greenlight forgiveness...that God was so pleased by the obedient life of Jesus that He decided to grant salvation to man through the discretion of the catholic priesthood "either not to pardon or to pardon, according as they refuse or give absolution...the sentence of the priest precedes, and God subscribes to it".  And, though forgiven, the recipient of that forgiveness must still make atonement for his sins via the sufferings of Purgatory.  Time in Purgatory may be lessened through the sale of "indulgences" where a bottomless barrel of "merit" filled by the good works of the saints (Mary's good works being MORE EFFICACIOUS than those of Christ) allows their merit to be credited to the forgiven person's account via a purchased "indulgence" by money, works, or whatever the priests specify.

Isn't it funny how these blasphemous insults to God barely cause an eyeroll, but if anyone agrees with the Protestant Reformers who identified the papacy as "Antichrist" - everyone loses their minds?

[AdHoc]

On 9/1/2023 at 10:17 PM, FreeGrace said:

Always happy to explain.   

There are no difficulties with what I shared.  I would need an explanation of what would be considered a difficulty.

Do you think Paul was confused about the matter?  THE most accomplished evangelist and Bible teacher, since he was taught directly from the Lord Himself?  I shared what he wrote.  I can do nothing more.  It is very clear to me.

I even extended myself beyond my usual "rules" and gave an explanation for all the references in Scripture regarding the dead being seen, etc.  Obviously it is all speculation on some level, or theory.  But since God didn't give any details, how do you treat the examples in the Bible of dead people being seen in heaven (Rev 6) and what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 5?

Well, I do have Scripture.  What John SAW in heaven.  John 6

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 

10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 

11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,were killed just as they had been.

They are talking with (questioning) the Lord.  Obviously they are in heaven.  

That is OT.  Every soul went to Hades.  Jesus account of Lazarus the poor man and a rich man both went to Hades, one to Paradise with Abraham, and the other to torments.  But after the resurrection, Jesus went to Hades and 'preached to the spirits in prison' and took all the inhabitants of Paradise with Him to heaven.

1 Pet 3:19 - in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison

Eph 4:8 This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”  9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions)?

Jesus didn't say "soul".  He said "spirit".  He was referring to the fact that only born again people have a living human spirit in them.  What actually died "on THAT day" back in Gen 3 was the human spirit.  1 Thess 5:23 identifies body, soul AND spirit.  When the Godhead said "let's make man in OUR image" meant just as the Godhead is Triune, Tripartate, Trichonomous, man was made in THAT image: body, soul, and human spirit.  So when Adam rebelled, his human spirit died "on that day", but not his soul or body.

So Jesus was telling the woman in Jn 4:24 that in order to worship God, one must have a human spirit (alive) with which to worship.  Unbelievers are said to be spiritually dead, therefore are unable to worship God properly.

Oh, no.  That is no problem at all.  It should be obvious that every saved person from Adam forward belongs to Him.  What else can that refer to?

But that's not what 1 Cor 15:23 says.  It says "when He comes" and we KNOW that He only comes back to earth ONE MORE TIME.  Heb 9:28 says so.

So 1 Cor 15:23 includes every believer from all time.

No, I don't.  They don't even factor into this discussion.

None of this has any effect on the singular resurrection of all believers.  And your use of the word "resurrected" in regard to the beast is in error.  There is no resurrection of the beast.  Read Rev 13.  He comes "out of the sea".  He is part of humanity.  There is no resurrection.  No verse supports that idea.

As the Second member of the Trinity, the Son of God, He IS the first human ever.  He preceded Adam, of course.

Heb 1:5,6  For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”?  Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?  And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

Given Heb 1:5, it is clear that Jesus existed as God's Son from eternity past.

And there are many examples of Jesus communicating with humans in the OT.  They are called theophanies.

To be "slain from the foundation of the world" simply refers to the FACT that God's will for His Son from eternity past was 'set in stone'.  iow, a FACT.  The plan was in effect "from the foundation of the world".

Eph 1:13 teaches that the Holy Spirit places the believer IN Christ as part of his/her salvation.  Being IN Christ means we SHARE in all that Christ is and has.  Water baptism identifies us with His death, burial and resurrection.  It occurred to Him, and we share in that.

Except that every mention of resurrection in the Bible is in the singular.  Second, there are NO verses that unambiguosly show multiple resurrections.

Obviously, those who believe in a pre-trib resurrection and rapture to heaven must admit that there will be a resurrection at the Second Advent, as Rev 20:4-6 very clearly shows.  What they can't prove is resurrected believers being taken to heaven.  In any verse.

Thanks for your comprehensive answer. I appreciate your effort. I will briefly answer some of your statements as we have deviated far from the Bema. In my postings I said that the resurrection was a harvest. I said that there is ONE harvest with ingatherings for firstfruits, general harvest and gleanings. To divert what i said and imply I meant resurrections (plural) is not correct. May the reader judge.

When scripture and nature show multiple ingatherings, to dismiss it is strange for a man of your knowledge. Nature is used in many instances to show the things of God.

For your theory that our Lord Jesus took all believers from Paradise to heaven, I would have expected at least two scriptures saying that. Instead you use a verse whose language doesn't remotely say this. The contrary is the case. Judah was in Captivity in Babylon. Cyrus defeats Babylon. By default he becomes "Captor". The Jews went nowhere. Just the jailer changed. The evidence however is damning. 50 days after His resurrection, and 10 days after His ascension, David as still in Hades and not ascended (Act.2:26-34).

Added to this you have disregarded the grammar of 1st Peter 3:19 by chopping a half verse out of the context. It reads;

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit By which also he (then) went and preached unto the spirits (now) in prison Which sometime were disobedient, ...

The subject of 1st Peter is the Holy Spirit and what He has done (1st Pet.1:2, 11, 22, 3:18, 4:14). One of the Spirits duties was to inspire Noah to build an Ark which preached coming judgment to the angels who mixed with women (Heb.11:7, 2nd Pet.2:5). The grammar has the Holy Spirit as subject who BOTH raised Jesus AND inspired the message of doom on SPIRITS. It reads "... the Spirit BY WHICH ... ." Also, man is always called a SOUL. Angels are SPIRITS (Ps.104:4).

I'll leave it at that, and hope that we can return to the Bema.

Thanks anyway for the exchange.

 

[phoneman-777]

19 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

I started this thread regarding the bema/judgment seat, somewhat because I heard several times that those who believe in eternal salvation, also believe there is no accountability.

One thing that stands out to me about the Bema seat is that it belongs to Christ alone. But, I hear a lot of people say in Christian forums "If you knew Christ" or "You need Christ" or "You aren't saved" and they don't realize they are actually "taking the place of Christ" on His judgment seat...and "take the place of Christ" is the very definition of "AntiChrist".

VineAbider, yours is an example of Christlike humility that is rare in these forums, and is commendable...just be careful. Did you hear about the guy who was given a medal for "the Most Humble Man in Town"? He put it around his neck and walked down the street, so they took it away 

Edited September 2, 2023 by phoneman-777

[Marilyn C]

13 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 In my postings I said that the resurrection was a harvest. I said that there is ONE harvest with ingatherings for firstfruits, general harvest and gleanings. 

 

For your theory that our Lord Jesus took all believers from Paradise to heaven, I would have expected at least two scriptures saying that.

 

A. The Feasts are to do with ISRAEL.

B. Two scriptures for believers whom Jesus took to heaven.

1. Eph. 4: 8 `He led captivity captive..` Jesus took those Old Testament believers in the grave to the General Assembly in the third heaven. (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

2. Heb. 12: 23 `to the spirits of just (righteous) men made perfect..` These are the OT believers who are in the General Assembly in the third heaven awaiting their inheritance. 

 

 Your quote in error - David as still in Hades and not ascended (Act.2:26-34).

The truth - `You will not leave my soul in Hades, ...` 

Heb. 11: 32 `also of David...`  He is one of the just/righteous men (& women) awaiting their inheritance in the third heaven.

`You have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus...` 

(Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

[FreeGrace]

18 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for your comprehensive answer. I appreciate your effort. I will briefly answer some of your statements as we have deviated far from the Bema. In my postings I said that the resurrection was a harvest. I said that there is ONE harvest with ingatherings for firstfruits, general harvest and gleanings. To divert what i said and imply I meant resurrections (plural) is not correct. May the reader judge.

Kinda seems like a word game.  The Bible is clear that there is one resurrection for the saved.  I've shared the verses.  And 1 Cor 15:23 is the ONLY verse that mentions "firstfruits" of the resurrection, which is Jesus.  Why?  Not because Jesus was in any "harvest", like fruit, or wheat, or what have you, but because He was the FIRST to receive a glorified immortal resurrection body.

Acts 26:23 -  that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

I am unaware of any verse that likens the resurrection to a harvest, complete with stages, like literal harvests have.

18 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

When scripture and nature show multiple ingatherings, to dismiss it is strange for a man of your knowledge.

And there's the rub.  Where does Scripture 'show multiple ingatherings'?  Now there's a switch in words.  From resurrection to harvest and now to "ingatherings".  I would love to see a verse that uses these words.

18 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

For your theory that our Lord Jesus took all believers from Paradise to heaven, I would have expected at least two scriptures saying that.

I showed you what I know from Scripture.  How many verses determine fact?

18 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Instead you use a verse whose language doesn't remotely say this. The contrary is the case.

Well, that's kinda funny.  There are zero verses that speak of Jesus taking ANY resurected believers to heaven.  

18 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Judah was in Captivity in Babylon. Cyrus defeats Babylon. By default he becomes "Captor". The Jews went nowhere. Just the jailer changed. The evidence however is damning. 50 days after His resurrection, and 10 days after His ascension, David as still in Hades and not ascended (Act.2:26-34).

Is v.29 what you have in mind?  “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day."

Very clear here; Peter is referring to David's grave, not his soul.  And there is nothing about Hades at all.

18 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Added to this you have disregarded the grammar of 1st Peter 3:19 by chopping a half verse out of the context. It reads;

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit By which also he (then) went and preached unto the spirits (now) in prison Which sometime were disobedient, ...

The subject of 1st Peter is the Holy Spirit and what He has done (1st Pet.1:2, 11, 22, 3:18, 4:14). One of the Spirits duties was to inspire Noah to build an Ark which preached coming judgment to the angels who mixed with women (Heb.11:7, 2nd Pet.2:5). The grammar has the Holy Spirit as subject who BOTH raised Jesus AND inspired the message of doom on SPIRITS. It reads "... the Spirit BY WHICH ... ." Also, man is always called a SOUL. Angels are SPIRITS (Ps.104:4).

Wow.  Why did you not comment on Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison?  Rather, you mention Noah (?).

18 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I'll leave it at that, and hope that we can return to the Bema.

Thanks anyway for the exchange.

Any time.   

[Vine Abider]

@AdHoc  @FreeGrace Thanks for all your contributions, however, as you mentioned it does not specifically have to do with the Bema/Judgement.  I think you already have indicated you were finishing up this line of discussion, so I encourage you to start another thread or perhaps PM, if you desire.

I'm saying this because there are some who have let me know how much they want to discuss the bema, so I'd hate to loose these folks due to too much sidebar traffic. 

And @Marilyn C - good to see you!  I was just thinking that I hadn't seen you around much, but this is a big forum . . .

So what do any of the three of you have to say concerning the thread's topic - a believer's accountability and the bema?

[AdHoc]

42 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

A. The Feasts are to do with ISRAEL.

B. Two scriptures for believers whom Jesus took to heaven.

1. Eph. 4: 8 `He led captivity captive..` Jesus took those Old Testament believers in the grave to the General Assembly in the third heaven. (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

2. Heb. 12: 23 `to the spirits of just (righteous) men made perfect..` These are the OT believers who are in the General Assembly in the third heaven awaiting their inheritance. 

 

 Your quote in error - David as still in Hades and not ascended (Act.2:26-34).

The truth - `You will not leave my soul in Hades, ...` 

Heb. 11: 32 `also of David...`  He is one of the just/righteous men (& women) awaiting their inheritance in the third heaven.

`You have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus...` 

(Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

 

Answer deleted - off theme

 

[AdHoc]

19 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

@AdHoc  @FreeGrace Thanks for all your contributions, however, as you mentioned it does not specifically have to do with the Bema/Judgement.  I think you already have indicated you were finishing up this line of discussion, so I encourage you to start another thread or perhaps PM, if you desire.

I'm saying this because there are some who have let me know how much they want to discuss the bema, so I'd hate to loose these folks due to too much sidebar traffic. 

And @Marilyn C - good to see you!  I was just thinking that I hadn't seen you around much, but this is a big forum . . .

So what do any of the three of you have to say concerning the thread's topic - a believer's accountability and the bema?

My apologies. It isn't fair to derail a good thread.

[Marilyn C]

4 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

"Led captivity captive", for anybody with high-school English, does not mean "mass deportation from Hades to heaven". It means; "Led captivity captive". The meaning of this is that there is a captivity - like Judah in Babylon. Along came a strong person and took this captivity as his own - like Cyrus. There is no talk of release, removal or freedom. They are still CAPTIVE! It is still called CAPTIVITY!

This verse is used by Christians because they have not a single verse that even remotely says; "Jesus led thousands of men and women who were naked and unclean in Hades to heaven". It is a prime example of twisting English to fit something that is never alluded to.

The folly of this superstition is seen in Matthew 16. The Lord said that He would build His Church and the Gates of Hades would not prevail against it. Did Jesus open the gates of Hades and was His Church built? NO! Because in Hades are the SOULS of men, but the Church is built with the BODIES of men (1st Cor.6:15). When Hades is opened men will be RESURRECTED. Has there been a general resurrection? NO! Could there have been a secret resurrection? NO! We are only resurrected "WHEN HE COMES".

I think that if scripture says: "Thous shalt not kill" it means, "you should not kill" - not "take a free holiday". One has nothing in common with the other.

For such a momentous doctrine as naked and unclean men and women going to heaven, I would think that it should be established by direct language. Every other doctrine is established by direct statements - and at least two.

 

Start your own thread on this and not take VA`s off.

[Marilyn C]

28 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

 

And @Marilyn C - good to see you!  I was just thinking that I hadn't seen you around much, but this is a big forum . . .

So what do any of the three of you have to say concerning the thread's topic - a believer's accountability and the bema?

Hi VA,

That was nice you had seen I wasn`t around much. Yes, busy elsewhere. Now you have presented some very good points regarding the Bema seat and what it entails. Good you addressed people thinking they had to do grandiose works to be accepted. 

So, what I have been taught -

Consequent upon our transition to heaven every Christian will appear before this Judgment Seat of Christ. From the Greek `Bema` this has no connotation of a judicial bench to dispense condemnation, but rather the official tribunal in the Greek Games where successful competitors assembled to receive their just reward.

This examination by the Lord Jesus Christ before the Heavenly Bema is evidently to review and make manifest to all the primary incentive which motivated every believer`s service and life, subsequent to their conversion. 

Commensurate rewards or loss of same will be determined by the criteria as to what was accomplished for God under the anointing and guidance of the Holy Spirit; or whether the underlying motive was solely for the self-aggrandizement of the individual. 

The former will inherit indestructible worth likened to gold, silver and precious stones: while the latter`s efforts will be consumed by the penetrating fire of the Lord, as would, wood, hay and stubble. 

Crowns (Greek `Stephanos` - Victor`s Crowns) will also be bestowed as additional rewards for specific ministry.

1. Righteousness - specifically anticipating His appearing. (2 Tim. 4: 8)

2. Rejoicing - Soulwinners. (1 Thess. 2: 19)

3. Life - Enduring trials. (James 1: 12)

4. Glory - Dedicated life in service to Lord. (1 Peter 5: 4)

5. Incorruptible - Overcomers. (1 Cor. 9: 25)