Believers' Accountability and the Judgement Seat of Christ

[JimmyB]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Let's get Isaiah behind us. The Church is not revealed in the Old Testament. All prophecy pertain either to Israel or the Nations. As the Covenants and the prophets tell (or foretell), Israel will be forgiven, reconciled and restored to leading Nation and host of messiah - Emmanuel. Isaiah foretells of conditions on earth during this glorious time. The animals are subdued and no danger exists for people in general.

But there is another side to this seeming paradise. When our Lord Jesus came the first time, His announcer John Baptist, He Himself and Hid disciples all taught the same thing - "The Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND." Israel, the "children of the Kingdom" refuse the King and His Kingdom. In Matthew 21:43 our Lord declares that the Kingdom, once the inheritance of Israel, is ripped away from them.

This devastating loss has not sunk in yet as they still await their Messiah and regard Jesus as imposter. But when the Kingdom is set up at our Lord's second coming, it will dawn on Israel what they forfeited. The regret and sense of loss is too great and Israel will break down in despair. You had won the lottery but lost your ticket. The $10 million was yours - but now out of reach. That explains the weeping and gnashing of teeth - signs of extreme loss. But where and/or what is "Outer Darkness"?

First, we must be true to the words. "Outer" has two meanings. It can mean "the outside" as opposed to inside. Or it could mean the furthest from a center. The Greek word in Matthew 8, 22 & 25 is the second meaning. In "comparative degree" it is the furthest from the center. Any Kingdom has three types of people. (i) the ruling class or family, (ii) the servants of the ruling class, and (iii) those ruled, or, the SUBJECTS.

The ruling family have all privileges and luxuries. The servants live in the palace with its luxury and status, but carry no title. They range from the "Esquire of the body" - the man closest to the king, to those who tend the swine. This will be Israel's position. A chosen Nation that failed to recognize their position and privilege. In it will be some glorious and some disdained (Dan.12:2). Notice Israel's future in Zachariah's prophecy in Luke 1 - Israel forgiven, restored to their land, safe and prosperous BUT SERVANTS. They had it ona plate to be the RULING CLASS, but ended as bond-servants - servants with no rights. So close to the King - but oh so far.

The Christian fares worse. By BIRTH (Jn.3:3-5, 1:12-13) the Christian is "heir to the promises" (Gal.3:29). He is royalty by BIRTH AND ADOPTION. Although he also SERVES as co-king with Christ, he has immeasurable status. He is guest at banquets with Christ. He is not wealthy. He OWNS EVERYTHING (Matt.24:47, Rom.8:32 etc.). He manages a city or cities and people bow to him/her (Rev.3:9). But the Christian who is found NOT WORTHY loses it all. He is cast to the "outer" most point from Christ and the sphere of His rule. He becomes a laughing stock for the Nations he should have ruled but is now lower than the Nations themselves.

He is banished to the "Outer" most point from Christ. Psalm 16 :11 says that the greatest pleasure in existence is to be in Christ's presence. But the slothful Christian is cast to the furthest point away from Christ. Our Lord said in Luke 16 that even the world's people will be praised, but he is, and was, stupid. He was like Esau. He had the birthright, but sold it for slop. When he should have been rewarded, he was CHASTISED!

You wrote "This devastating loss has not sunk in yet as they still await their Messiah and regard Jesus as imposter. But when the Kingdom is set up at our Lord's second coming, it will dawn on Israel what they forfeited. The regret and sense of loss is too great and Israel will break down in despair. You had won the lottery but lost your ticket. The $10 million was yours - but now out of reach. That explains the weeping and gnashing of teeth - signs of extreme loss. But where and/or what is "Outer Darkness"?

But that simply isn't true.  Jesus was a Jew, as were all the disciples, all the apostles, all the first "Christians", and all the authors of the Bible (Luke being the sole exception).

Jews who adhere to the tanakh believe the Messiah hasn't come yet, but there are other Jews (myself included) who believe (know!) that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah.

You should read Romans 11.  The first six verses say "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." Romans 11:1-6

and continuing on i9n verses 11-12, "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!"

And verses 15-16 say "For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

And verses 71-21 address those Gentiles who feel they are superior... "If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”  Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either."  

That section of Romans is very clear: God has not rejected Israel, His chosen people. Claiming "it will dawn on Israel what they forfeited. The regret and sense of loss is too great and Israel will break down in despair" and "You had won the lottery but lost your ticket" are simply are not true!

It is also false to write "Israel forgiven, restored to their land, safe and prosperous BUT SERVANTS. [TOTAL NONSENSE!] They had it on a plate to be the RULING CLASS, but ended as bond-servants - servants with no rights. [ ALSO TOTAL NONSENSE!] So close to the King - but oh so far." This is just a)wishful thinking and b)self-glorification.

I won't address the condemnation of the Gentiles, which is also false, as I've said enough.

READ YOUR BIBLE AND LEARN WHAT IT ACTUALLY SAYS!!!

Edited August 31, 2023 by JimmyB

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Now, our Lord Jesus is the fulfillment of all things set forth by His Father. A study will show that our Lord Jesus fulfilled every piece of the Tabernacle, every piece of furniture of the Tabernacle, every ritual and every Offering. Our Lord Jesus is the fulfillment of the Wave Offering. But the Father required a SHEAF (Lev.23:11-12). Thus, a select company of Old Testament men and women of faith were raised up to join our Lord when He presented Himself to the Father as first fruits of the resurrection.

So,WITH death defeated, the penalty/ransom paid, their sins washed clean having repented to Christ over the course of the 3 days (who gives life to whomever He chooses) of hearing the GOOD NEWS, 

ONLY SOME

will now BE REDEEMED.



only  A SELECT FEW of GODS CHILDREN FROM THE BONDAGE OF HELL, FROM THE PAINS OF DEATH, FROM THE CORRUPTION OF THE GRAVE GET TO RESURRECT.   NOT SURE HOW THAT IS JUST.  SURE, IT MAY 'FOLLOW' AFTER THE HARVEST SCHEDULE FOR CROPS BUT i AM THINKING MAYBE THAT IS WHY THE WORDS OF GOD SPECIFICALLY MENTION A HARVEST AT THE END THAT STATES THEY GROW TOGETHER SO AS NOT TO HURT ANYONE.................

 I guess THIS PASSAGE should have included
 

1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD upon Me because has anointed Yhvh Me
to preach good tidings to the poor
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted

the brokenhearted to proclaim to the captives liberty and to the opening of the prison

2  To proclaim the year acceptable of Yhvh

FOR 
A SELECT FEW  a WAVE offering ONLY!!!   


as for the REST,

OF 'THE CAPTIVITY' now all sparkling CLEAN AND WITHOUT IMPUTED SIN

WE will be leaving YOU HERE IN HELL WITH SATAN AND THE REST OF THE DEAD. 


I realize you were kept SEPARATE while you WALKED THE EARTH, but 
 

now, YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL I RETURN.  Hope death isn't tooo painful....



(a question from way in the back.......IS there no room in heaven? 

Oh no, there is plenty but there are ways the crops are harvested and feasts that go with them and THEY DICTATE that MOST OF YOU STAY IN HELL for no reason at all,)

Didn't you just tell us the OLD COVENANT was replaced by the NEW?  Doesn't the new claim the whole lump is made HOLY BY YOU?   Didn't the prophecy say THE CAPTIVES WOULD BE SET AT LIBERTY?   

So what GOES AGAINST US YOU ARE KEEPING BUT WHAT IS FOR US YOU DISREGARD?  

How much HARDER will it be to be in HELL with no sin?   How much harder will it be when SOME are resurrected, but not all?   There will be TEARS IN HEAVEN THAT DAY... all clean and white

but you know those harvest schedules.     

What is a GOD to do?   



THE HARVEST SCHEDULE also 

DEMANDS

THAT EVERY body of those WHO NEVER DIES GO to the grave,

although I can't quite figure out how that is going to work since they will be without sin and under grace....how does one resurrect from a place they should never be?  

Then again, how is it POSSIBLE TO RAISED IN POWER AND IN GLORY FROM HELL?


Why not just raise them up that way from 'the body' at the FIRST DEATH, the death we are not to fear?  

 THE WHOLE LUMP MADE HOLY

OF THEM THAT SLEPT  He is the first fruit



CHRIST the beginning of it all

what did He say?  FOLLOW ME...every man in his own order

the LIVING WILL NOT STOP THE DEAD FROM THEIR RESURRECTION.  If everyone is raised up at the last day ALL OF THAT IS NULL AND VOID.  

THEN THOSE WHO ARE HIS AT HIS RETURN.  THAT WOULD BE THE ALIVE AND REMAINING

NOT THE DEAD. 

but hell could probably use some HOLINESS 


 Is THAT WHAT YOU SEE WRITTEN?  ARE THEY ALL JUST WORDS?   

Sometimes I don't think the REALITY of what is taught even gets contemplated. 

Like a STORY someone made up THAT NO ONE IS LIVING it, EXPERIENCING it.  Like a harvest schedule is more important than being JUST to all souls. 

Please don't be offended, it is absolutely not my intention, I just don't know how to say it so you can understand what I SEE YOU SAYING.  





 

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for the reply. I respect your point of view.

I have an explanation for those resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53. You might want to file it away for a future day.

 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many (Mt 27:51–53)

God is the Lord of the harvest. It is He that gives the rain and the increase. He claims the first and best tenth as His portion. This tenth is to be taken to His House and His people are to feast on it. Part of this tenth was the "Wave Offering". It was to be a "sheaf" and not only an ear. It was to be waved "on the morrow after the Sabbath". Its vigorous movement was to indicate that is represented the living.

If any of those people who came out of their graves received resurrection bodies, then 1 Cor 15:23 cannot be true.  I cannot believe that any verse is not true.

Jesus was first to receive a resurrection body, per Acts 26:23.  Matt 27 records people rising from the dead BEFORE Jesus received His resurrection body.  So how could any of them have a resurrection body BEFORE Jesus received His?  And that would mean Acts 26:23 cannot be true.  

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Now, our Lord Jesus is the fulfillment of all things set forth by His Father. A study will show that our Lord Jesus fulfilled every piece of the Tabernacle, every piece of furniture of the Tabernacle, every ritual and every Offering. Our Lord Jesus is the fulfillment of the Wave Offering. But the Father required a SHEAF (Lev.23:11-12). Thus, a select company of Old Testament men and women of faith were raised up to join our Lord when He presented Himself to the Father as first fruits of the resurrection.

To be "firstfruits" of the resurrection means to be the FIRST to receive the glorified immortal resurrection body.  1 Cor 15:23

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I made "after" bold to emphasize our Lord being FIRST. Thus, His "preeminence" remains intact. That is also why Mary may not touch Him. He says that "I have not YET ascended to my Father ... but tell my disciples that I go (now) ... ." That evening He bade His disciples to touch Him. Looks like Hebrews 9:11-12 was fulfilled as well on resurrection day.

Since He was the FIRST, then NONE of those who were raised from the dead received a resurrection body, and therefore, all of them physically died again.

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

My last observation is that while there is not a single exception to Hebrews 9:27, the Bible has a number of living people in heaven - starting with our Lord being taken BODILY up, and spending 2,000 years there - bodily. That is, scripture actively provides the fact of living men in heaven.

Actually, only 2.  Regarding Jesus, you are describing His ascension, which occurred AFTER He died physically.  He ascended in His resurrection body.

The only 2 that haven't yet died are Enoch and Elijah.  My view is that they are the 2 witnesses in Rev 11.  And they will die!

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Problematic is the theory that dead men dwell in heaven. There is not a single case recorded. There is not a single verse which plainly says so.

No problem at all.  First, Paul wrote about life and death of the believer.

2 Cor 5-

6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 

8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

v.6 describes the believer who is physically alive.  They are "away from the Lord", meaning they are not in heaven.

v.8 describes the believer who has physically died.  Or, "away from the body and at home WITH the Lord".  

So, believers are either alive on earth or have died and are in heaven.

Second, John SAW "souls under the altar".  He recognized them as humans, and recorded that they were talking.  

So there's that.  That's enough evidence for me.

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

And considering that 2nd Corinthians 5 has dead men naked, and the whole Old Testament has the dead as unclean, it is highly unlikely that God would break His own rules and have naked and unclean men near Him.

Anyway, just thinking.

Go well

Paul used the word "naked" to refer to not having a physical body for the soul to live in.  However, it SEEMS that souls are visible to the eye.  King Saul recognized the prophet Samuel at a seance.  I know many refuse to accept that he came back from the dead, but the Bible plainly describes Saul talking TO Samuel.  

What seems logical and plausible is that God provides some kind of "interim" body for souls, while awaiting the Resurrection.  Since the Bible doesn't give details, we just don't know.  But we do know souls after death are recognizable, the 2 witnesses are seen, etc.

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Here's a thought to ponder.  Christianity has long been locked in an Arminian and Calvinistic thought battle as to which is right.  Regarding eternal salvation one can go to verses that seem to support one side well; one can also go to many verses which seem to support the other side well. (and both sides are pretty convinced the other is a seriously damaging "doctrine of devils")

But scripture can't be saying both are true, can it?!  No, the word of God doesn't actually support either - it supports itself.  Calvinism and Arianism were thoughts developed by men, that support what they respectively see in scripture.  The squaring off of the two, apparently conflicting ideas, I think is really a false dilemma.

Correct!  When I debate Calvinists, I am called an Arminian.  When I debate Arminians I am called a Calvinist.  These 2 camps seem unable to realize that there are more than just the 2 camps.

13 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Much like the story of three blind men encountering an elephant* for the first time, I think in a certain sense both schools of thought are correct, but they aren't the complete view.

A number of believers see a third option in scripture, that embraces both sets of scriptures Calvinists and Arminians hold on this matter, and which solves the apparent dilemma.  That is what I hope to present effectively in this thread.

1. When the life of Christ is accepted into a believer, they become reborn with the eternal life of God and become an eternal child of God - partakers of the divine nature  (this should satisfy the Calvinistic thought)

2. The child of God is held accountable for things done while in their body - rewards for overcoming and being "faithful in a few things" --> or serious and severe punishment for not handling well the grace they've received (this should satisfy the Arminian thought)

3. Therefore, considering #1 & #2, the ample warnings for believers are not about loosing their life/salvation, but rather regarding them being accountable to God for their works and things done in the body after coming to know Christ.  That is, there are huge consequences for a born-again believer in not allowing Christ to grow in them and be Lord of their life ongoing.

I think if one looks at verses both sides use, you'll hopefully see that these points  give a more complete view of what scripture is saying in this matter of salvation.

I hope I've been able to make this clear and that it is edifying.

You certainly have been very clear!  What I have seen is that both Calvinists and Arminians have some truth in their theology but also some very unbiblical ideas.  That's why when I agree with what is true in either theology I'm identified with the other theology.  

Both have some truth AND both have some false claims.  That's why I don't identify with either theology.

13 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

* One blind man, feeling a leg says "The elephant is like a tree." Another feeling the tail says, "No, it is like a rope!" The third blind man feeling the elephant's side responds, "You're both wrong - it is like a wall!"

So I wouldn't say "both theologies are right".  I say both are right in some doctrines and WRONG in some doctrines.   

[Ray12614]

On 8/28/2023 at 2:05 PM, Vine Abider said:

There is a lot of ongoing & passionate debate on here about the teaching of “once saved always saved,” and that discussion goes back many years, in multiple threads. While my beliefs are that God saves people by renewing their spirit with His life, thereby making believers His children forever, my intention here is to look into the accountability side of what it means to be His children.  There is accountability and discipline for what the children of God do, after they have received His life into them. That means that because He loves His children, He wants them to grow and mature effectively in His life and thereby overcome personal sin. This requires His loving care and discipline.

Ultimately, this accountability culminates in the Judgement seat of Christ, where we will either receive rewards or loss.  This is something the children of God have to look forward to, where they can (hopefully) hear those wonderful words, “Well done good and faithful servant!  You have been faithful in a few things – enter into the joy of your Lord!” (Matt 25:23)

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10:23 that as God’s children, “all things are lawful.” That is, Christians have complete freedom to choose what they want in their life. However, in this same sentence he finishes by saying, “but not all things are profitable.” The child of God has the freedom to choose whatever he or she wants (as do all human beings due to their God-given free will), but Paul points out that the Christian’s choices may or may not be profitable or pleasing to the Lord. (The reality is we have been purchased with the precious blood of Christ and we are actually NOT our own, but He still allows us the choice.)

 Again, this has nothing to do with condemnation for sin, as that has been removed in Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice - His free gift of grace to us (also resulting in being reborn as His children). However, sin can very much still have a negative impact on the believer, even though God’s penalty for it has been removed. We cannot “play” with sin in our lives and think that there are no consequences whatsoever. God states that He actually forget our sins (Jer 31:34 & Heb. 8:12; also see Psalm 103:12), but sin in our lives can still damage us and our walk with the Lord! Sin can deceive us, dull our conscience and senses, break fellowship with God (from our side), damage human relations, cause physical issues, and many other negative things! So in this respect, these kinds of choices are certainly not profitable to born-again believer.

 The New Testament reveals there will be major, future judgments by God. Two of these are the Great White Throne, found in Revelation 20:11-15, and the Bema of Christ (often rendered “judgment seat”) found in 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Romans 14:10. The Bema is the first to occur of these two judgments, and Christians are the focus of examination there. Then, some time afterwards, there is the Great White Throne, which is the last judgment by God. The result of this final judgment is, “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:15). Our focus now, as believers in Christ, should only be the Bema judgment. Romans 14:12-13 says, “So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. Therefore, let us stop passing judgment on one another.” (“Bema” is a word the ancient Greeks used for a physically elevated position where awards were given to competing athletes at the Olympic Games. Paul is clearly likening the Christian life to the athletic discipline of these games and the resultant awards for competing well. See 1 Corinthians 9:24-27.)

Next up - more about the Bema Seat and its serious implications for all believers . . .

.Thank you for talking about the Bema Seat of Christ. I have been talking about this for years (since it is the settling of accounts so to speak for Christians) and most Christians have never heard of it. Makes me wonder if they read/study their Bibles.

It is sobering to realize that our lives are being recorded in heaven somewhere and that we will be rewarded for some works, and suffer loss for other things. .

It was a little painful to read through some of the replies to this topic, but, I have realized that the 'terror' of the Lord is standing before Him and having our whole lives actions since salvation 'reviewed' and either approved, or disapproved. It should motivate us to good works and to deny sin in our lives.

Again, thank you for your post . . . very appreciated . . . 

Grace and Peace . . . 

[AdHoc]

16 hours ago, JimmyB said:

READ YOUR BIBLE AND LEARN WHAT IT ACTUALLY SAYS!!!

Thank your for your lengthy reply. Your words are noted. You claim to be a Jew. But my Bible, the one you want me to read and learn, says that if you are a believer - a disciple of Jesus, you are NEW CREATION and the old is PASSED. This includes ethnicity - for if we read the Bible it plainly says

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Co 5:17)

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal.3:27-28)

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision (Col 3:10–11)

Indeed ... one should read their Bible ...

.

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Ray12614 said:

It is sobering to realize that our lives are being recorded in heaven somewhere and that we will be rewarded for some works, and suffer loss for other things. .

 

3 hours ago, Ray12614 said:

It was a little painful to read through some of the replies to this topic, but, I have realized that the 'terror' of the Lord is standing before Him and having our whole lives actions since salvation 'reviewed' and either approved, or disapproved. It should motivate us to good works and to deny sin in our lives.

Again, thank you for your post . . . very appreciated . . . 

Grace and Peace . . . 

@Ray12614

In the bible are many examples that do not endorse what you have posted about Jesus. 

There is nothing in the bible that supports what you wrote about Jesus Christ. In fact there is a lot of scripture to the contrary. 

Jesus desires for us is to come to the Knowledge of understanding what we are thinking of doing and what we have done and what we are about to do if they are things pleasing to him. He wants us in this life to have this knowledge as to continue to do the good that is aproved of him and stop doing the things that are not aproved by him.

Jesus desires are that in this life come to the understanding to know whether He aproves or disapproves our thoughts and our planing or what we are doing or what we have done. To have the know how if he aproves or disapproves.

Jesus desires that in this life we have that know how we have done and how we are doing. 

GOD HAS GIVEN US THE RIGHT (in the New Covenant) in this life to know if we have his approval or not in the things we do. Not to wait after we die (and that also) at that time when we are with him our ignorance will be revealed. 

What good will do to you if Jesus Christ gives you this knowledge after You have die physically. What would someone say to anyone who had the know how to correct and to equipped and redirect someone within the frame when that was possible to happen but he does nothing and withholds from you what you should have known and let you continue in your errors till you die and telling you what you could have done better, but not when you lived but after you have die physically. 

Want you tell him? What is the problem with you, you knew what I was doing was wrong and you did not tell me while I live as you did tell the people in the churches in Revelation chapter 2, 3 and you also promised them that you will again inform them of how they were doing in a similar fashion, and as in the parable of the talents where you rewarded them with something during their lifetime and from that time they continued to live with the benefits of the rewards. 

Why you are telling me now after my death the things that I should have known in my lifetime that's the time I wanted to know what you aprove or disapprove of what I do...and have the opportunity to bring the correction from my errors.  Why you let me alone in this life and you did not come along with me to be my counselor and my quide, why you let me live with my short sightness? What good is going to do to me now..that I do not live on earth anymore...that only can make me, perhaps, be angry at you. If not at that very moment but later when I will think those things over. 

Besides my posting, about the revelations of Jesus Christ and how He is judging and how he rewards his own in chapter two and three and the parable of the stewards of the talents are in strong disagreement with you...as it does not seem to take them into consideration that it happens as we go on living our lives...that we do not live our lives alone but with the living word and the counsel of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

If any of those people who came out of their graves received resurrection bodies, then 1 Cor 15:23 cannot be true.  I cannot believe that any verse is not true.

Jesus was first to receive a resurrection body, per Acts 26:23.  Matt 27 records people rising from the dead BEFORE Jesus received His resurrection body.  So how could any of them have a resurrection body BEFORE Jesus received His?  And that would mean Acts 26:23 cannot be true.  

To be "firstfruits" of the resurrection means to be the FIRST to receive the glorified immortal resurrection body.  1 Cor 15:23

Since He was the FIRST, then NONE of those who were raised from the dead received a resurrection body, and therefore, all of them physically died again.

Actually, only 2.  Regarding Jesus, you are describing His ascension, which occurred AFTER He died physically.  He ascended in His resurrection body.

The only 2 that haven't yet died are Enoch and Elijah.  My view is that they are the 2 witnesses in Rev 11.  And they will die!

No problem at all.  First, Paul wrote about life and death of the believer.

2 Cor 5-

6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 

8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

v.6 describes the believer who is physically alive.  They are "away from the Lord", meaning they are not in heaven.

v.8 describes the believer who has physically died.  Or, "away from the body and at home WITH the Lord".  

So, believers are either alive on earth or have died and are in heaven.

Second, John SAW "souls under the altar".  He recognized them as humans, and recorded that they were talking.  

So there's that.  That's enough evidence for me.

Paul used the word "naked" to refer to not having a physical body for the soul to live in.  However, it SEEMS that souls are visible to the eye.  King Saul recognized the prophet Samuel at a seance.  I know many refuse to accept that he came back from the dead, but the Bible plainly describes Saul talking TO Samuel.  

What seems logical and plausible is that God provides some kind of "interim" body for souls, while awaiting the Resurrection.  Since the Bible doesn't give details, we just don't know.  But we do know souls after death are recognizable, the 2 witnesses are seen, etc.

Okay. I've read your comprehensive answer and thank you for your effort.

I think that the easiest way to disprove me would have been plain scripture. Your understanding of 2nd Corinthians 5:6-8 is fraught with difficulties.

You have a live Christian absent from the Lord. But then in death, when the "tabernacle" is dissolved and buried in the sand, you have him present with the Lord Who has a body. How can a nothing be present with substance?

Then you have the disembodied believer in heaven (but without a single scripture), when Psalm 139:8 says that if a man makes his bed in Hades, he will be with the Lord's Spirit. According to John 4:24 this is the the correct way - "worship" (a function of the soul) in the Spirit - (the PLACE of worship).

As to 1st Corinthians 15:23, you have a problem because the resurrection is "those who are His". Besides being Head of the Church, He is King and owner of Israel. They are BOTH His, but they are resurrected at different times and with different glories.

But even more have you a problem with the Beast and the False prophet. They both come out of the Abyss. The Beast "was" and "shall be". He was one of seven kings, but has died, but will be the eighth. 2nd Thessalonians 2 says that we will see the "revealing" of the Beast. That means the Beast will be resurrected BEFORE the Christians. The best remains true to Hebrews 9:27. He does not die again. He goes alive to the Lake of Fire.

Finally, if we are to believe that God is God - the greatest mind ever, the absence of one exception is noteworthy. The grammar of 1st Corinthians 15:23 is to be respected - as you have. But how then do you reconcile the fact that our Lord Jesus was born of a virgin some 2,000 years ago, but is, at the same time, "firstborn of all creation". Similarly, how is One born 2,000 years after Abraham BEFORE Abraham. And how is one crucified under the fixed rule of Pilate - a genuine historical person, and at the same time "slain from the foundation of the world". 

But even more than this, what if I were to point out that we were "raised with Christ" - yet we both have not died yet? I think the answer to multiple resurrections is easily fulfilled in the realm that we strain to understand.

[JimmyB]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank your for your lengthy reply. Your words are noted. You claim to be a Jew. But my Bible, the one you want me to read and learn, says that if you are a believer - a disciple of Jesus, you are NEW CREATION and the old is PASSED. This includes ethnicity - for if we read the Bible it plainly says

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Co 5:17)

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal.3:27-28)

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision (Col 3:10–11)

 

The word "Jew" doesn't appear in the verses you posted..  So, according to you, all the disciples, all the apostles, all the  members of the first churches, and all the authors of the bible (excepting Luke) weren't Jews???

Romans 1:16 says "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile." 

Romans 2:9-11, "There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."

Romans 2:29, "No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God."

Romans 3:1-2, "What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God."

Romans 3:22, "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,"

Repeated again in Romans 10:12, "For There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,"

Romans 15:8, "For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed"

Romans 15:27, "They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings."

Romans 16:11, "Greet Herodion, my fellow Jew. Greet those in the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord."

Romans 16:7 says "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was." 

Romans 16:21, "Timothy, my co-worker, sends his greetings to you, as do Lucius, Jason and Sosipater, my fellow Jews."

1 Corinthians 1:24, "but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

1 Corinthians 12:13, "For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

Colossians 3:11, "Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."

These are words that Paul wrote. Is that clear enough for you???

Indeed, one should read and believe their Bible!

Your attitude toward the Jews disagrees with what God's word clearly says!!!

Edited September 1, 2023 by JimmyB

[Your closest friendnt]

@Vine Abider

The Devil does not care and he never care for the corpse of the man after he dies...and he still had taken the man after he died and keep him in Hades in the place of the dead. The God of the dead  was ruling over the Spirits of the dead people...Jesus died for the redemption of everyone. At the time of his death everyone was redeemed. Everyone was free, everyone was put in the valley of decision.  

God knew everyone by name..everyone's life was written in the books of God.

And the God of the Dead also had his books and knew everyone by his name and he knew everyone by what they had done themselves. 

And everyone knew who they were and what they had done..and what had happened in their lives and they knew their children and who they were..and all their contemporaries and the history of their people...their Nation. 

And even though they had died they never stop thinking which is telling us that they never stop learning. 

The God of the dead put everyone in the place where they belong...to do that he had to Judge the people...the dead people because he reign over the dead people (minus Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and the descendants of Jacob and those who became adopted by their families even descendants of the other children of Abraham or from Esau or from the other people of their neighbors such as the Hitites and others non Israelites.  

Not God and definitely not the Devil care to raise a dispute about a dead body..many things could happen to their corpses. Some they were dismember and scatter to several places  meeting their own fate...

Jesus came to redeem the souls of the people from the God of the Dead Hades who were kept under his watch at his Kingdom....

That's where Jesus descended at the time of his death on the Cross in the place of the Dead and that's where he was raised from, from the Dead...

Jesus redeemed the Spirits of all Men as he himself in the Spirit man or in the Spirit without his body "definitely without his body" also descended in the place of the dead to continue in the mission his Heavenly Father had given him...that's where he triumph over Thanatos and the God of the Dead Hades. 

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Your closest friendnt