Are the Tribulation Saints and Old Testament Saints Raptured After they are Resurrected at the Second coming?

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

7 hours ago, The Light said:

Timeline for the first rapture is the 24 elders WITH CROWNS in Revelation 4. The crowns tell you Jesus HAS come.

Revelation 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

There are also kings and priests in heaven before the throne in Rev 5.

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Then there is the rapture at the 6th seal. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Most people think that the coming of the Lord in Matthew 24 occurs at the 7th trumpet. We can tell that is in error by the following verses.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. This is the second rapture.

I'm afraid I don't see anything that mentions a rapture in the passages you mentioned. The 24 elders could be representative of the church or Israel OR they could be literally 24 people. The text is uncertain. The 6th seal is a judgement, like the other 20 mentioned in Revelation. I'm sorry but I just don't see any words that indicate any kind of rapture. The only 2 passages that I can see a rapture in are 3:10 & 4:1, but it's not 2 raptures. 

[The Light]

2 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I'm afraid I don't see anything that mentions a rapture in the passages you mentioned. The 24 elders could be representative of the church or Israel OR they could be literally 24 people.

I never mentioned they were the Church. What I mentioned is that they have crowns. You don't get crowns until Jesus returns. It should be obvious He has returned.

Revelation 3

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

I did say the kings and priest of Revelation 5 are the Church as they are kings and priests from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

 

2 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

 

The text is uncertain. The 6th seal is a judgement, like the other 20 mentioned in Revelation. I'm sorry but I just don't see any words that indicate any kind of rapture. The only 2 passages that I can see a rapture in are 3:10 & 4:1, but it's not 2 raptures. 

Let me ask you, do you see a rapture in these verses?

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Edited October 19, 2023 by The Light

[transmogrified]

On 10/17/2023 at 3:25 AM, Diaste said:

With myriads being the noun and holy the modifier. Not clear here that it's anything other than a group described as holy. Doesn't have to be 'saints'.

This is the problem again...the translators ADDED the word 'ones' into the text which automatically changes  the word 'Hagios' into an adjective, which means the word 'hagios' is now DESCRIBING these thousands of 'ones' as being holy, rather than IDENTIFYING them as being saints, and in doing so the text loses the explicit identity of who it is that is coming with Jesus and puts ambiguity in its place.

This is how you arrive at your statement...

Quote

With myriads being the noun and holy the modifier.

Holy IS NOT THE MODIFIER...THE WORD 'HAGIOS' IS DESCRIBING SAINTS...INSTEAD OF SAYING 'HAGIOS' IN GREEK, YOU WOULD SAY 'SAINTS' IN ENGLISH IN THIS SETTING JUST LIKE IT DOES IN ALL OTHER SETTINGS WHEN THERE IS NO NOUN TO MODIFY.

Even in when you quote 'myriads' as being the noun, we have to look at how a number becomes a noun rather than a adjective...this is how it is defined:

Quote

 

Can numbers be an adjective?

Numbers can be used as adjectives or nouns. As an adjective, the number must precede a noun and be used as a modifier. Here's an example: He has nine apples. In this sentence, nine is a modifier because it tells how many apples he has.

 

What did it say? It said in order for a number (ten thousands, or myriads) to be an ADJECTIVE it must precede a noun and be used as a modifier...

What are the translations saying? 'He comes with 'ten thousands' of his holy ones...' The number, 'Ten thousands' are preceding the noun of 'his holy ones' so what does that make the the number, an adjective or a noun? It makes it an adjective and not a noun...

You can see from the Englishman's Concordance below,that in all these scriptures where the number precedes the noun the word 'thousands' or 'myriads' is an ADJECTIVE and NOT A NOUN

Englishman's Concordance

Luke 12:1 Adj-GMP
GRK: ἐπισυναχθεισῶν τῶν μυριάδων τοῦ ὄχλου
NAS: circumstances, after so many thousands of people
KJV: when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people,
INT: having been gathered together the myriads of the crowd

Acts 19:19 Adj-AMP
GRK: εὗρον ἀργυρίου μυριάδας πέντε
NAS: of them and found it fifty thousand
KJV: [it] fifty thousand [pieces] of silver.
INT: found [it] of silver myriads five

Acts 21:20 Adj-NMP
GRK: ἀδελφέ πόσαι μυριάδες εἰσὶν ἐν
NAS: how many thousands there are among
KJV: how many thousands of Jews
INT: brother how many myriads they are among

Hebrews 12:22 Adj-DMP
GRK: ἐπουρανίῳ καὶ μυριάσιν ἀγγέλων
NAS: Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
KJV: and to an innumerable company of angels,
INT: heavenly and to myriads of angels

Jude 1:14 Adj-DMP
GRK: ἐν ἁγίαις μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ
NAS: came with many thousands of His holy ones,
KJV: with ten thousands of his
INT: amidst holy myriads his

 

 

Almost all versions have added the word 'ones' into  the text

 

NIV See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones

BSB - with myriads of His holy ones
 

BLB - with myriads of His holy (ones)   *at least BLB put in the word 'ones' in italics to show it was added by the translators..

CEV - coming with thousands and thousands of holy angels   *here the translators took it upon themselves to add the word 'angels' into the text where there was no word in the text to translate.

So do all the following versions adding either 'ones' or 'angels..' :

 NASB 1995, NAS, NAS 1977, LSB, Amplified Bible, Christian Standard Bible, Holeman Christian Standard, Aramaic Bible, ERV...ect...ect..

 

Here is 'A Faithful Version' in Bible Hub - Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His holy saints   *These translators stayed with the Greek text as did the KJV

So did the Geneva Bible of 1587 - Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His holy saints
 

As did the Bishops Bible of 1568 - Beholde, the Lorde shall come with thousandes of saintes,
 

And Coverdale - Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His holy saints

And Tyndale - Beholde ye lorde shall come with thousandes of sayntes

Godbey New Testament - Beholde ye lorde shall come with thousandes of sayntes

Mace New Testament - "see! the Lord is coming with ten thousand of his saints,

Haweis Translation - saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with myriads of his saints,
 

God brings those that sleep in Jesus with him when he comes, so they are up there or he couldn't bring them back...the saints will reign on the earth, so the great multitude of people John heard in heaven have to get down here to reign with Christ...

The two witnesses are caught up into heaven in a cloud...absolutely shown they go up in glorified bodies up into heaven...how are they going to get back down here to reign on the earth? They will come back with Jesus...

The bride who is the lambs' wife comes down from heaven...how did she get up there? She ascended up when all the dead in Christ rose up to heaven at the second coming...this includes all the saints from the beginning to when Christ comes...so all these saints are up there or they couldn't come down, but they must come down to reign on the earth...and they come down with Jesus at the second coming..

Those that are with the Lamb are 1) called, and 2) chosen, and 3) faithful...these are not angels...these are saints...those that sleep in Jesus are not angels, they are saints...when Zech. said he comes and all his saints are with him...it is imperitive to realize if he wanted to say all the angels with him he would have used the word for angels - 'malak' ...instead of the word for saints -'qados'

This is not to ignore the plain scriptures that say Jesus will come and 'all the holy angels with him...' of course they are coming with him as well...but one scripture that shows his  saints coming with him, and another that shows the angels coming with him does not mean saints and angels are the same thing...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[transmogrified]

On 10/18/2023 at 5:29 AM, FreeGrace said:

1 Cor 15:23 says that "those who belong to Him" will all be resurrected "when He comes".  So the return to physical life of the 2W is not a glorified immortal resurrection, just as all the raising to life examples in the OT and NT weren't.

Absolutely false...the seventh trumpet sounded when they went up and this is the time when all the saints are changed...we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.. THE DEAD ARE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE...THIS CORRUPTIBLE SHALL PUT ON INCORRUPTION, THIS MORTAL SHALL PUT ON IMMORTALITY...WHEN? AT THE LAST TRUMP...ALL ARE CHANGED INTO IMMORTAL BODIES...THE DEAD IN CHRIST...I.E. THE TWO WITNESESS AND ALL THE OTHER SAINTS WHO HAVE DIED WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE...

On 10/18/2023 at 5:29 AM, FreeGrace said:

Since 1 Cor 15:23 is clear about when the resurrection of all believers will occur, no one is taken to heaven.  Because Jesus is returning to earth at the Second Advent,for the wedding supper, Bema and the MK.

BEHOLD THE LORD COMETH AND ALL HIS SAINTS WITH HIM...ALL THE SAINTS ARE COMING BACK WITH HIM...THEY THAT ARE WITH HIM ARE CALLED AND CHOSEN AND FAITHFUL...THE BRIDE OF CHRIST DESCENDS DOWN FROM HEAVEN...HOW DID SHE GET UP THERE? THE DEAD IN CHRIST ROSE FIRST AND THEN THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN ARE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR...THEN ALL THE SAINTS DESCEND DOWN TO REIGN ON THE EARTH WITH CHRIST...

John heard a great voice of a multitude of people IN HEAVEN...this is when all the saints have just arrived...on the last day...on the day Jesus comes, all the dead in Christ will rise first...where do they rise to? They rise to heaven...this is the voice of all the people in heaven...they are getting ready to come back with Jesus on white horses and to fight at Armageddon...

Rev. 19: 1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia, Salvation and glory and honor and power unto the Lord our God...(THESE ARE SAINTS!!!)

They don't stay up there forever...they come down to the earth with Jesus because they will reign as kings and priests ON THE EARTH..AND RULE OVER THE NATIONS...

On 10/18/2023 at 5:29 AM, FreeGrace said:

All the ones who accompany Jesus to earth are those who have already died and their souls are in heaven.  Rev 19 is about the believers in heaven preparing for the wedding supper.

Yes, when we die our spirits return to God who gave them...just as it happened with the two witnesses...they died and their spirit went back to God who gave it...HOWEVER...THEIR BODIES WERE STILL RESURRECTED AND WENT UP TO HEAVEN IN A CLOUD..

They will shortly return that same day with Jesus to reign on the earth will all the other saints...they will be childrend of the resurrection and be like the angels and never die again...

On 10/18/2023 at 5:29 AM, FreeGrace said:

1 Thess 4 says the living believers will meet the Lord in the air (clouds) with those who came with Him.

Yes, of course!!! This is the meaning of the being caught up to meet the Lord in the air...the dead rise first...they go up to heaven just like the two witnesses...then they return and the living meet them in the clouds...of course...THEY ASCEND UP TO HEAVEN...THAT IS HOW ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO WERE HEAVEN GOT UP THERE...THEY WERE CAUGHT UP, THEY ASCENDED...YES THEY ARE GETTING READY FOR THE MARRIAGE!!!

On 10/18/2023 at 5:29 AM, FreeGrace said:

v.17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

YES AMEN AND AMEN!!!

On 10/18/2023 at 5:29 AM, FreeGrace said:

Living believers will be caught up together with THEM in the clouds;  Jesus and all the believers from heaven.  And this begins Jesus' reign on earth.

OF COURSE!!! They all descend down from heaven and reign with Christ for a thousand years...HALLELUJAH!!!

[transmogrified]

On 10/18/2023 at 11:05 PM, The Light said:

No. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal,

He descends from heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST...

This all happens at his coming...the resurrection happens at the last trumpet, on the last day...this is the harvest of the wheat and the tares, this is the end of the age...not sometime before the end of the age...

Job said the dead will not rise or awake from their sleep until the heavens be no more...the heavens are rolled back like a scroll at the sixth seal...this is showing there is no resurrection of anyone before the heavens depart, but to zero in on the exact time it will take place at the 7th trumpet...which of course is immediately after the tribulation...BUT IN NO CASE WHATSOEVER BEFORE THE SEVENTH TRUMPET SOUNDS!!!!

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

What did it say? It said in order for a number (ten thousands, or myriads) to be an ADJECTIVE it must precede a noun and be used as a modifier...

What are the translations saying? 'He comes with 'ten thousands' of his holy ones...' The number, 'Ten thousands' are preceding the noun of 'his holy ones' so what does that make the the number, an adjective or a noun? It makes it an adjective and not a noun...

You can see from the Englishman's Concordance below,that in all these scriptures where the number precedes the noun the word 'thousands' or 'myriads' is an ADJECTIVE and NOT A NOUN

A myriad is a thing, an indefinitely large group, not a number. It's sometimes used to represent a number in a strict sense but in abstract it's a large group, a thing. 

The lexicon and concordance show the part of speech for murias is a noun. This group isn't being counted, but is represented as uncountable. "Ten thousands" is not a definite number. 'ten thousand' would be. 'Ten thousands' is abstract hence, murias is a noun.

It's not the elect saints and cannot be. The elect saints are not even resurrected until Jesus arrives. 

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

God brings those that sleep in Jesus with him when he comes, so they are up there or he couldn't bring them back...the saints will reign on the earth, so the great multitude of people John heard in heaven have to get down here to reign with Christ...

Up there? Sleeping? So they sleep in Jesus, in heaven? 

What is meant by the passage you quote is bring with in the resurrection in like manner as Jesus was resurrected, not back from heaven. That would seem to be impossible since the dead in Christ aren't resurrected until Jesus returns.

How can they be returning with Him when He only resurrects them when He returns?

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Almost all versions have added the word 'ones' into  the text

 

NIV See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones

BSB - with myriads of His holy ones
 

BLB - with myriads of His holy (ones)   *at least BLB put in the word 'ones' in italics to show it was added by the translators..

CEV - coming with thousands and thousands of holy angels   *here the translators took it upon themselves to add the word 'angels' into the text where there was no word in the text to translate.

 

Took it upon themselves? To render murias as angels? But then the other translators didn't take it upon themselves to render murias as saints? 

If one was to stay true to the Greek it would only ever be 'holy myriads', no other identification. "Holy ones" in my mind is a more accurate rendering since this is a myriad which has the attribute of holiness. That could be either elect saints or angels since both groups are large in number and holy.

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

Here is 'A Faithful Version' in Bible Hub - Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His holy saints   *These translators stayed with the Greek text as did the KJV

So did the Geneva Bible of 1587 - Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His holy saints
 

As did the Bishops Bible of 1568 - Beholde, the Lorde shall come with thousandes of saintes,
 

And Coverdale - Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His holy saints

And Tyndale - Beholde ye lorde shall come with thousandes of sayntes

Godbey New Testament - Beholde ye lorde shall come with thousandes of sayntes

Mace New Testament - "see! the Lord is coming with ten thousand of his saints,

Haweis Translation - saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with myriads of his saints,

Inaccurate renderings. The Greek has no such idea on the identification of this group other than it is large and indefinite. To render murias as either saints or angels is not dictated by the text. 

I know people want this to be 'elect saints' but the idea is just not there and must be proven elsewhere.

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The two witnesses are caught up into heaven in a cloud...absolutely shown they go up in glorified bodies up into heaven...how are they going to get back down here to reign on the earth? They will come back with Jesus...

This is akin to saying because a tree grows oranges, all trees grow oranges.

This is a category mistake, where the attributes or characteristics of one example is applied to the entire group. Enoch and Elijah were also raised up having never died. Many graves were opened on Jesus resurrection. There are a few resurrections that have conditions that do not apply to the primary resurrection, just as the primary resurrection has conditions which apply to no other resurrection.

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The bride who is the lambs' wife comes down from heaven...how did she get up there? She ascended up when all the dead in Christ rose up to heaven at the second coming...this includes all the saints from the beginning to when Christ comes...so all these saints are up there or they couldn't come down, but they must come down to reign on the earth...and they come down with Jesus at the second coming..

You need to look at what you say here:

"She ascended up when all the dead in Christ rose up to heaven at the second coming.."

"and they come down with Jesus at the second coming.."

Are they ascending and returning in the same moment?

 

 

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

FreeGrace said: 

1 Cor 15:23 says that "those who belong to Him" will all be resurrected "when He comes".  So the return to physical life of the 2W is not a glorified immortal resurrection, just as all the raising to life examples in the OT and NT weren't.

Absolutely false

If you want to claim any kind of "exception" to what Scripture teaches, you'll have to prove it with Scripture.  Heb 9:27 says it is appointed ONCE for man to die, but we know that all unbelievers will be thrown into the "second death" after the GWT.  So they physically die twice. That's not an exception, because Heb 9:27 doesn't say ONLY die once".  If it did, then dying twice would be an exception.

Regarding exceptions, every human who came back to life before the singular resurrection of all believers at the Second Advent aren't exceptions either, because they did die again.  

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

...the seventh trumpet sounded when they went up and this is the time when all the saints are changed...we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.. THE DEAD ARE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE...THIS CORRUPTIBLE SHALL PUT ON INCORRUPTION, THIS MORTAL SHALL PUT ON IMMORTALITY...WHEN? AT THE LAST TRUMP...ALL ARE CHANGED INTO IMMORTAL BODIES...THE DEAD IN CHRIST...I.E. THE TWO WITNESESS AND ALL THE OTHER SAINTS WHO HAVE DIED WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE...

All this is about the Second Advent.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

BEHOLD THE LORD COMETH AND ALL HIS SAINTS WITH HIM...ALL THE SAINTS ARE COMING BACK WITH HIM...THEY THAT ARE WITH HIM ARE CALLED AND CHOSEN AND FAITHFUL...THE BRIDE OF CHRIST DESCENDS DOWN FROM HEAVEN...HOW DID SHE GET UP THERE? THE DEAD IN CHRIST ROSE FIRST AND THEN THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN ARE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR...THEN ALL THE SAINTS DESCEND DOWN TO REIGN ON THE EARTH WITH CHRIST...

Second Advent

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

John heard a great voice of a multitude of people IN HEAVEN...this is when all the saints have just arrived...on the last day...on the day Jesus comes, all the dead in Christ will rise first...where do they rise to? They rise to heaven...this is the voice of all the people in heaven...they are getting ready to come back with Jesus on white horses and to fight at Armageddon...

Please show me the EXACT verse that SAYS "they rise to heaven".  What I read is they are gathered up to the clouds and are changed.  There is NOTHING in ANY verse about resurrected/changed believers being taken to heaven.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Rev. 19: 1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia, Salvation and glory and honor and power unto the Lord our God...(THESE ARE SAINTS!!!)

Yes, only saints in heaven.  All those who have already died before Jesus returns to earth.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

They don't stay up there forever...they come down to the earth with Jesus because they will reign as kings and priests ON THE EARTH..AND RULE OVER THE NATIONS...

This is the Second Advent, followed by the MK.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, when we die our spirits return to God who gave them...just as it happened with the two witnesses...they died and their spirit went back to God who gave it...HOWEVER...THEIR BODIES WERE STILL RESURRECTED AND WENT UP TO HEAVEN IN A CLOUD..

Prove that their bodies were glorified and immortal from Scripture.  I don't go on assumptions or presumptions.  I go with clear and unambigous statements.  Nothing less.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

They will shortly return that same day with Jesus to reign on the earth will all the other saints...they will be childrend of the resurrection and be like the angels and never die again...

That's what resurrection of believers is all about.   

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, of course!!! This is the meaning of the being caught up to meet the Lord in the air...the dead rise first...they go up to heaven just like the two witnesses

No they don't and there are NO verses that say that.  Being caught up to meet the Lord in the air from 1 Thess 4 is describing the Second Advent, when Jesus returns TO EARTH to end the trib and rule the nations in the MK.  He doesn't go back to heaven.

Or prove it with Scripture.  All you're doing is assuming things.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

...then they return and the living meet them in the clouds...of course...THEY ASCEND UP TO HEAVEN...THAT IS HOW ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO WERE HEAVEN GOT UP THERE...THEY WERE CAUGHT UP, THEY ASCENDED...YES THEY ARE GETTING READY FOR THE MARRIAGE!!!

Rev 19 is about all the saints who have already died and gone to heaven are preparing for the wedding supper, and then accompanying the King back to earth, to meet all the living believers, where all believers receive their resurrection bodies.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

YES AMEN AND AMEN!!!

OF COURSE!!! They all descend down from heaven and reign with Christ for a thousand years...HALLELUJAH!!!

To "descend from heaven and reign with Christ" proves that no believer goes up to heaven, yet your post repeatedly said that.