Signs of the times?

[WilliamL]

5 hours ago, luigi said:

We see from the data in Revelation 13, that the saints are here on the earth and are being overcome by the beasts mouth in Revelation 13:7, which is also described in Daniel 7:25. The return of the Lord does not occur until after the 42 months allotted the beast and its mouth in which time the saints experience great tribulation. As such the signs in both Revelation 8 and 9 precede the Lords return/Parousia.

You are projecting your beliefs into the Word. Everything following the 6th Seal is during God's Wrath. The GT is NOT the same thing: it precedes the Wrath. All of the saints mentioned in Rev. 13 and 20, and in Daniel 7, are Jewish/Israelite saints, who will come to faith in Christ when they "look on Me whom they pierced, and mourn for Him..." Rev. 1:7; Zech. 12:10 Daniel says absolutely NOTHING about the Church, which was a mystery hidden from the OT prophets. The 144,000 are Israelite saints "on the earth" (Rev. 7:1) who are sealed in their foreheads after the Parousia and Rapture.

[luigi]

1 hour ago, garee said:

 Yes, that's natural man. Those that seek after a sign before they will believe. God sends them a strong delusion

 

Literally making Jesus into a circus seal work . . . your magic. . . then when we see  we will exercise faith not one moment sooner  (no faith )

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

 Satan the lying sign go wonder king 

The Lord tells us to look for the signs in the Olivet discourse (Mark 13:37). I will therefore continue to do so. The Lord also tells us that when these signs appear, to not be too attached to these things of the world, as these material things will be a snare to the whole world (Luke 21:34-35). These things that will snare everyone are the miracles (technological wonders) from Satan to watch out for. 

Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

[luigi]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

You are projecting your beliefs into the Word. Everything following the 6th Seal is during God's Wrath. The GT is NOT the same thing: it precedes the Wrath. All of the saints mentioned in Rev. 13 and 20, and in Daniel 7, are Jewish/Israelite saints, who will come to faith in Christ when they "look on Me whom they pierced, and mourn for Him..." Rev. 1:7; Zech. 12:10 Daniel says absolutely NOTHING about the Church, which was a mystery hidden from the OT prophets. The 144,000 are Israelite saints "on the earth" (Rev. 7:1) who are sealed in their foreheads after the Parousia and Rapture.

You are correct in that the GT precedes the wrath of God on the faithless in Revelation 16, but there are remnant surviving saints who still have their skins at the end of the GT, who are around for Armageddon (Revelation 16:15-16). As I have previously shown, that the beast of ten horns who rises from the sea in Revelation 13:1 is another description of the beast who rises from the bottomless pit in Revelation 9; the events in Revelation 9 would then correlate with when the beast is in power for 42 months. This means the wrath of God on the beasts members would not commence until following the beasts 42 month reign, which further mean the seven plagues in Revelation chapters 8 & 9 are during the days of great tribulation (not the wrath of God on the faithless). 

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16  And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

You are projecting your beliefs into the Word. Everything following the 6th Seal is during God's Wrath. The GT is NOT the same thing: it precedes the Wrath. All of the saints mentioned in Rev. 13 and 20, and in Daniel 7, are Jewish/Israelite saints, who will come to faith in Christ when they "look on Me whom they pierced, and mourn for Him..." Rev. 1:7; Zech. 12:10 Daniel says absolutely NOTHING about the Church, which was a mystery hidden from the OT prophets. The 144,000 are Israelite saints "on the earth" (Rev. 7:1) who are sealed in their foreheads after the Parousia and Rapture.

The 6th seal is great tribulation.The people seen here in the caves of the mountains are the people who fled for the mountains in Mathew 24.

What your reading about here is the abomination of desolation which is being used by the United States armed forces to destroy all their enemies in the middle east after they have attacked and overcome Israel.

Benjamin netanyahu is wanting a NATO styled agreement like this with the United States so that if israel.is attacked,the United states will respond.

They respond.

 

 

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

[garee]

3 hours ago, luigi said:

The Lord tells us to look for the signs in the Olivet discourse (Mark 13:37). I will therefore continue to do so. The Lord also tells us that when these signs appear, to not be too attached to these things of the world, as these material things will be a snare to the whole world (Luke 21:34-35). These things that will snare everyone are the miracles (technological wonders) from Satan to watch out for. 

Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Hi .I would offer there is a big difference between signs of the times And seeking after a sign to wonder, wonder wonder, after until it becomes sight.

Prophecy serves the believer in 3 ways to look ahead to the future . . the things now. .  and that which is past .There is no missing information. The living word is sealed with 7 seal till the end of time.  No sign to wonder after where given other that the Sign of Jonah. 

Sign seekers like that of nicodemus before his conversion make Jesus into a circus seal.

Do some magic work a miracle then when we see with our own eyes then we will believe and trust   .

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Signs to wonder after or prophecy ?

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

 

wonder after signs do not replace prophecy, natural unconverted naturally seek after a sign to wonder after .

[luigi]

57 minutes ago, garee said:

Hi .I would offer there is a big difference between signs of the times And seeking after a sign to wonder, wonder wonder, after until it becomes sight.

Prophecy serves the believer in 3 ways to look ahead to the future . . the things now. .  and that which is past .There is no missing information. The living word is sealed with 7 seal till the end of time.  No sign to wonder after where given other that the Sign of Jonah. 

Sign seekers like that of nicodemus before his conversion make Jesus into a circus seal.

Do some magic work a miracle then when we see with our own eyes then we will believe and trust   .

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Signs to wonder after or prophecy ?

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

 

wonder after signs do not replace prophecy, natural unconverted naturally seek after a sign to wonder after .

I would offer to look for the signs the Lord informs us in the Olivet discourse to look for during these times.

[WilliamL]

On 9/6/2023 at 2:11 PM, luigi said:

You are correct in that the GT precedes the wrath of God on the faithless in Revelation 16, but there are remnant surviving saints who still have their skins at the end of the GT, who are around for Armageddon (Revelation 16:15-16).

Again, you are projecting into the Word something that is not there. No verse after 7:14, which is still in the time of the sixth seal, mentions the GT.

On 9/6/2023 at 2:11 PM, luigi said:

the beast of ten horns who rises from the sea in Revelation 13:1 is another description of the beast who rises from the bottomless pit in Revelation 9...

Agreed.

On 9/6/2023 at 2:11 PM, luigi said:

the events in Revelation 9 would then correlate with when the beast is in power for 42 months. This means the wrath of God on the beasts members would not commence until following the beasts 42 month reign, which further mean the seven plagues in Revelation chapters 8 & 9 are during the days of great tribulation (not the wrath of God on the faithless). 

Rev. 9's fifth trumpet is the first possible time for the beginning of the 42 months of the Mouth of the Beast, but not necessarily of the Beast itself.

Re: Rev. 8's first four trumpets, even again you project into the Word that they occur during the GT, not wrath; whereas Rev. 6:17 explicitly states the wrath begins at the 6th seal, before even the first trumpet has sounded.

[WilliamL]

On 9/6/2023 at 5:25 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

The 6th seal is great tribulation.The people seen here in the caves of the mountains are the people who fled for the mountains in Mathew 24.

Jesus told us in Matt. 24:29 that the heavenly and earthly cataclysms corresponding to the sixth seal will occur "after the tribulation." The people who flee then are not the saints who must flee during the trib; rather, they are the rebellious who flee from "the Face" of God, per Rev. 6:16 and Isaiah 2:10ff.

[luigi]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Again, you are projecting into the Word something that is not there. No verse after 7:14, which is still in the time of the sixth seal, mentions the GT.

Agreed.

Rev. 9's fifth trumpet is the first possible time for the beginning of the 42 months of the Mouth of the Beast, but not necessarily of the Beast itself.

Re: Rev. 8's first four trumpets, even again you project into the Word that they occur during the GT, not wrath; whereas Rev. 6:17 explicitly states the wrath begins at the 6th seal, before even the first trumpet has sounded.

You might try telling millions of Christians throughout the world today who are increasingly being persecuted and murdered that there is no great tribulation. Again I say what the Lord says in the Olivet discourse, and that is to watch for the signs of these times.

[Shilohsfoal]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Jesus told us in Matt. 24:29 that the heavenly and earthly cataclysms corresponding to the sixth seal will occur "after the tribulation." The people who flee then are not the saints who must flee during the trib; rather, they are the rebellious who flee from "the Face" of God, per Rev. 6:16 and Isaiah 2:10ff.

The tribulation Jesus is speaking of in Mathew 24:29 is the persecution of he saints in Israel.

Mathew 24:29

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

 

This tribulation of the saints begins when the second beast arrives in Israel and the mark of the beast is given.The saints are imprisoned and murdered for the next 3.5 years.

 

Daniel 11:33-35

Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.

During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.

And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

 

As you can see,these saints don't flee.

It is after this tribulation which the saints endure that the great tribulation takes place at the time of the end.This is when the abomination of desolation is used.

Daniel 12:1

And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.

 

This is when the great earthquake and the heavens depart from the earth as a scroll being rolled together after the 6th seal is opened.This is what the abomination of desolation causes.

As for the people fleeing in Mathew 24,they are fleeing from the abomination of desolation.They are fleeing to the mountains where the caves are.

 

¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

 

 

John gave a great description of the abomination of desolation in revelation 6.