The 7th Trump is the Last Trump

[Shilohsfoal]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes they are God's witnesses that he gave power to do what they do...'I will give power unto MY  two witnesses...in other words they belong to God, in other words, they are among those who would belong to Christ at his coming...in other words, they are the servants of God just like you would be considered a servant of God...in other words, they are witnesses just like we are witnesses, like it said after the Holy Ghost is come upon you you shall be witnesses unto me...witnesses here means the same as witnesses with the two prophets...it means a martyr for the Lord...in other words when he said they are my two witnesses, it means they are purchased by God and are redeemed by the Lord just as you and I are redeemed or are a purchased people...

And who said 'If any man hurt them, fire proceeds out of their mouth, and devours their enemies; and if any man hurt them, they must in this manner be killed...' This is not something they came up with and just decided to do...this is power that God gave them and told them specifically that if anyone hurts them they must be killed in this manner...

You are saying they are doing their own thing and God will punish them, but IT IS GOD HIMSELF WHO IS TELLING THEM TO DO THIS...

God does not punish people for doing his will...God does resurrect wicked people and rapture them up to heaven...There is not another rapture for wicked people...no, no. NO. There is ONLY ONE RAPTURE AND IT FOR THE DEAD IN CHRIST AND THOSE THAT ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN...NO OTHERS!!!!

Actually,they don't come with Christ at his coming.Christ comes to Jerusalem and the saints will be with him.The two witnesses who killed and tormented people don't come with Christ. They are taken out of his kingdom when he comes.

As for their power .Fire coming out of someone's mouth is nothing new.Fire coming out of the mouth is actually a command used in the armed forces of the north which the man of sin puts in Jerusalem for 42 months.

These armed forces.

Daniel 11;31

“His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

 

Now,if you know who's armed forces these are,then you should also know their commands.

"Fire proceeded from their mouths"

 

FIRE COMMANDS

B-73. Fire commands are oral orders issued by leaders to focus and distribute fires as required achieving decisive effects against the enemy. They allow leaders to rapidly and concisely articulate their firing instructions using a standard format 

 

 

Just because the commanders of the son of perditions armed forces are christians which is common in his armed forces,and they have power to kill and torment other people in Jesus name ,does not mean they are doing God's will.Jesus commands them to not render evil for evil but obviously they are not keeping Jesus commandments.They are keeping  the son of perditions commandments which he has commanded them.

 

 

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[Shilohsfoal]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes they are God's witnesses that he gave power to do what they do...'I will give power unto MY  two witnesses...in other words they belong to God, in other words, they are among those who would belong to Christ at his coming...in other words, they are the servants of God just like you would be considered a servant of God...in other words, they are witnesses just like we are witnesses, like it said after the Holy Ghost is come upon you you shall be witnesses unto me...witnesses here means the same as witnesses with the two prophets...it means a martyr for the Lord...in other words when he said they are my two witnesses, it means they are purchased by God and are redeemed by the Lord just as you and I are redeemed or are a purchased people...

And who said 'If any man hurt them, fire proceeds out of their mouth, and devours their enemies; and if any man hurt them, they must in this manner be killed...' This is not something they came up with and just decided to do...this is power that God gave them and told them specifically that if anyone hurts them they must be killed in this manner...

You are saying they are doing their own thing and God will punish them, but IT IS GOD HIMSELF WHO IS TELLING THEM TO DO THIS...

God does not punish people for doing his will...God does resurrect wicked people and rapture them up to heaven...There is not another rapture for wicked people...no, no. NO. There is ONLY ONE RAPTURE AND IT FOR THE DEAD IN CHRIST AND THOSE THAT ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN...NO OTHERS!!!!

This is what the two witnesses were commanded to do and did not.This is why they are removed from Christs kingdom at his coming .

 

5 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

² And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

³ Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

⁴ Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

⁵ Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

 

⁶ Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

⁷ Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

⁸ Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

⁹ Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

¹⁰ Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

¹¹ Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

¹² Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

 

¹³ Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

¹⁴ Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

¹⁵ Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

¹⁶ Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

¹⁷ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

¹⁸ For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

¹⁹ Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

²⁰ For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

This is what the two witnesses were commanded to do and did not.This is why they are removed from Christs kingdom at his coming .

 

5 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

² And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

³ Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

⁴ Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

⁵ Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

 

⁶ Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

⁷ Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

⁸ Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

⁹ Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

¹⁰ Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

¹¹ Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

¹² Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

 

¹³ Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

¹⁴ Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

¹⁵ Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

¹⁶ Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

¹⁷ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

¹⁸ For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

¹⁹ Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

²⁰ For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

And while these scriptures were in effect, Peter, through the Holy Spirit told Sapphira that the feet of them that buried her husband were at the door and would carry her out...both her and her husband died under the ministry of Peter and yet Peter was a servant of God..who gave Peter this power?  The same God who gives power unto the two witnesses...God did not remove Peter out of the kingdom and rapture him to heaven because he didn't keep his commandments...

When the beast and the false prophet are taken at the second coming, they are not taken out of the kingdom by being raptured to heaven...they are cast into the lake of fire...this is the destiny of people who disobey God's commandments, not heaven...

 

[Shilohsfoal]

15 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

 

And while these scriptures were in effect, Peter, through the Holy Spirit told Sapphira that the feet of them that buried her husband were at the door and would carry her out...both her and her husband died under the ministry of Peter and yet Peter was a servant of God..who gave Peter this power?  The same God who gives power unto the two witnesses...God did not remove Peter out of the kingdom and rapture him to heaven because he didn't keep his commandments...

When the beast and the false prophet are taken at the second coming, they are not taken out of the kingdom by being raptured to heaven...they are cast into the lake of fire...this is the destiny of people who disobey God's commandments, not heaven...

 

The same God who gives power to the two commanders of the son of perditions armed forces is the same God who gave power to Pontius Pilate to kill his only begotten son.

John 19:11

Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

 

You must think Pontius Pilate is a man of God since God gave him.that kind of power.

 

The lake of fire is in heaven where the two witnesses ascend to.Obviously you don't know what causes the earthquake in Jerusalem and the cloud that ascends from Jerusalem into heaven.If you knew what caused that,then you would know what those two bad boys are ascending into.

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[Last Daze]

21 hours ago, Still Alive said:

Without getting into details, I think that 2024 is going to be a perfect storm. One for the history books. And I'm not just being US centric. I'm talking about the world. 

Could be.  I'm looking at 2025 myself.

[WilliamL]

On 9/17/2023 at 2:20 AM, Diaste said:

The case for the last trump as a singular trump unconnected to the 7th trump of Revelation 11 has not yet been made.

The case for the 7th trump of Revelation 11 as a trump connected to the last trump has not yet been made either. Just speculation. In the three End Time trumpets mentioned in the NT -- Matt. 24, 1 Cor. 15, and 1 Thes 4 -- none of them provide even a hint that this trumpet is part of a series of trumpets.

However, as I have shown in two different blogs, the types and shadows of the OT manifested during the times of Moses and David clearly portray End Time events in an order that puts the rapture at the points comparable to the 6th seal.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1992-the-end-times-and-the-exodus-part-2/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/842-the-kingdoms-of-solomon-and-jesus-christ/

 

[Diaste]

On 9/17/2023 at 9:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

 

(Its elsewhere also, I will show soon) But above, you don't get that do you? Why is THAT CITY the Bride of Christ? Because after we return with Jesus we do not stay on this earth and rule with Jesus, Rev. 20:4 SPECIFICALLY says that ONLY the Martyrs of the 70th week who REFUSED to take the Mark of the Beast live and reign for 1000 years on earth with Jesus (I LOOK AT TE FINE DETAILS) so that means we, the Pre Trib Raptured Church, who returns with Jesus Christ in Revelation 19, go back to Heaven, thus we help build and finish off the New Jerusalem, and thus as it descends, with us already in it, John is told that New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ (NOW THINK A LITTLE) Jesus is not going to marry an inanimate object, the Bride is in the City as it descends.

Wow. I have been doing this a long time and have seen any of the above scenario written anywhere; except for the Rev 20:4 fact.

On 9/17/2023 at 9:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

Now, again, showing you can't or don't want to interpret the scriptures when they show you to be in error lets see if the bride is shown elsewhere, and a KEY POINT is made here that ties Rev. 19 to Rev. 4:4.

Rev. 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

So, this is the Bride of Christ, that is what a Marriage does, make one a bride. The Bride in verse 8 is DESCRIBED as having FINE, WHITE LINEN, here in verse 14 we see the Bride is the Army of God and we travel from Heaven (Timing, timing, timing, meaning we must have been there while the Beast was on earth) to earth with Jesus as the rest of the passage shows. We are the MULTITUDE, as it shows above, as seen in Rev. 7:9-16 as seen in Rev. 5:9-10 as seen in Rev. 4:4. 

Likely not. When the bride is identified as the city then there must exist another understanding of the above quoted verses. Both the above scenario you present and the Rev 21 description of the bride cannot be true. 

You make the connection that because of this:

"8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

It's clear the bride is the saints. But that isn't what Rev 19:8 says so it's a false connection. This is a metaphor. Fine linen isn't what makes the saints or the city righteous, it's the outward sign of spiritual righteousness. So when this is said, it's simply telling of the pure nature of the bride, not identifying the bride, that identification is in Rev 21. 

 

On 9/17/2023 at 9:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 19 is a Parenthetical Citation Chapter, it covers the full 7 years, we see the Bride Marrying the Lamb "CHAPTER" and thus it HAS TO HAPPEN BEFORE Revelation 4:4 because they already have on their WHITE ROBES (Think man). Same with Rev. 7:9-16 they already have on their White Robes, so Rev. 19 can only be about the full 7 years of the Bride in the Marriage Chambers. Just like Rev. 14 is the full 7 Year Harvest because we see a FLASHBACK to the Rev. 14:14 Pre Trib Rapture, God made this book hard to grasp on purpose. Is not in Chronological Order on Purpose. It has an order.

No. Every interpretation of scripture you present is filtered through the idea pretrib is immutable fact. You didn't let the scripture speak. You presuppose pretrib as divine utterance and holy writ, it is not. Every interpretation run through the meat grinder of pretrib is bloody mess.

On 9/17/2023 at 9:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

The Wrath of God

Rev. 8, 9 and 15&16 which goes together in reality. All of God's Wrath emits from the 7 Trumps (Divine Completion). The 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe, which is the 7th Trump, don't believe that? See Rev. 8:13 the Three Woes to come are the Last Three Trumps yet to SOUND !! 

Still isn't wrath. Unless you can prove it so with a direct and explicit statement akin to the description of the bowls, which are called wrath. The trumps are never called wrath, they cannot be wrath since believers are still present on earth up to the 7th trump. Wrath doesn't even begin, or is not present, until the 7th trump of Rev 11. 'Is come' is an existence of wrath in Rev 11:18; not preexisting, not a past beginning, not future continuation, just 'is', at that moment. 

On 9/17/2023 at 9:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

 

Rev. 11 is the 1260 day ministry of the Two-witnesses which starts 75 days before the 1260 Beast comes to power. They thus must die 75 days before the Beast dies at the 7th Vial. 

Nope. The witnesses are in the full first half.

On 9/17/2023 at 9:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 12 is the Dragon Chapter, the Dragon being kicked out of heaven for the 1260 days of God's Wrath, he will chase Israel for those 1260 days, to no avail.

Matt 24 disputes this, as it disputes the entirety of the pretrib doctrine.

On 9/17/2023 at 9:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

TBH, people who insist the BoR is in chronological order simply can't see the obvious.

I agree. 

On 9/17/2023 at 9:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

 

So, the Bride getting married in Rev. 19 happens BEFORE Rev. 4:4 and 5:9 and BEFORE Rev. 7:9-16 where we see the Pre Trib Raptured Bride in Heaven. 

This only must be so for you and the pretrib crowd as it's a necessary part of the doctrine for the order to be such, but it mutes the facts of the scripture again.

When Rev 19 says,

" for the marriage of the Lamb is come," it is in existence at that moment, not before and there is no duration; "ēlthen" is the same aorist verb used in Rev 6:17 and 11:18. This is only happening now, not before, this is the moment. The aorist is a time/space moment, not an ongoing condition. Once again pretrib has filtered truth through the meat grinder of doctrine.

On 9/17/2023 at 9:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

Astonishing denials. You have no leg to stand on here.

Yeah, I deny there is truth on the pretrib threshing floor.

On 9/17/2023 at 9:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

We have the Holy Spirit, He wants to reveal Himself and in these END TIMES He wants to show us all things END TIMES. You have MENS IDEAS in you mind brother, and believe me, they will block God's ideas if we let them. I know, I had those same ideas for 30 years. 

Yeah, yeah. Heard it all before. I'm immune to that kind of religious manipulation. Don't waste your effort.

On 9/17/2023 at 9:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

Of course not, never give an inch. Its amusing. But on that day you get Raptured Pre Trib it will all come unto you then. Here is the thing tat worries me, people who can't see these simple things of God, are they hearing wrongly elsewhere also? The biggest problem I see is FEET are demanding to be HANDS. If you are not called unto Prophecy then try to listen to those who are. 

You have to desist with this form of controlling speech. That may work on some, but it won't on me. Facts, scripture, normal understanding, accurate definitions, explicit statements, direct testimony and very, very few presuppositions and only as dictated by the text, will convince me.

You don't have that in full. Pretrib has never had it, and never will.

On 9/17/2023 at 9:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

You will find out very soon. God Bless

WE will find out. Together. 

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Wow. I have been doing this a long time and have seen any of the above scenario written anywhere; except for the Rev 20:4 fact.

That me adding it up without allowing PRECONCIEVED ideas to block out the facts. If only the Martyrs live and reign on earth with Christ that means the Church who were already raptured will not be on earth, its simple math. So, God will not just have us sitting around. So, using simple logic, if the New Jerusalem is called the Bride of Christ it can only mean we descend in it. This is not revelation from God as I get on some things, this is simple logic/simple math.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Likely not. When the bride is identified as the city then there must exist another understanding of the above quoted verses. Both the above scenario you present and the Rev 21 description of the bride cannot be true. 

You make the connection that because of this:

"8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

It's clear the bride is the saints. But that isn't what Rev 19:8 says so it's a false connection. This is a metaphor. Fine linen isn't what makes the saints or the city righteous, it's the outward sign of spiritual righteousness. So when this is said, it's simply telling of the pure nature of the bride, not identifying the bride, that identification is in Rev 21. 

It most certainly is what Rev. 19:8 says, come on man. Admit it, SMILE.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The WIFE = the Bride, and that is who SHE refers unto. The Saints are the Bride.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

No. Every interpretation of scripture you present is filtered through the idea pretrib is immutable fact. You didn't let the scripture speak. You presuppose pretrib as divine utterance and holy writ, it is not. Every interpretation run through the meat grinder of pretrib is bloody mess.

On 9/17/2023 at 10:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

 It is an immutable fact brother. Its not really debatable, I do not even get why its a question tbh. Its just too simple via all of the TIMELINES, however I know this is my calling, and what may appear as simple unto me might not be to the average joe via prophecy/eschatology. 

By the way, about 8 or so years ago, after NOT CARING for 30 plus years when the Rapture happened, the Lord led me to first look for the Timing of the Rapture, because everything else depends on this truth, so off I went with no preconceived notions, and to me it was very easy to see that the Rapture can only be Pre Trib, I looked with no bias, cause I only care about God's truths. Look at the things I no longer agree with brother than the aver guy still thinks is true, I go against all of those grains, so I am not a naive follower of men. All one has to do is to stop and think on the 1335 being the Two-witnesses who come 45 days before the AoD (False Prophet) who comes 30 days before the 1260 Anti-Christ and when they see these truths they should step back and say Wooo, I might ought to listen to this guy. Instead they deny it, when its OBVIOUS the 1335 comes 1335 days before the 2nd Coming ends all of these wonders. This proves I do not go along to get along, I follow the word where it leads. I say the Dan. 9:27 TAKING AWAY of the "Sacrifice" is Jesus Worship being stopped by a Jewish High Priest (F.P.) and that is what it is, its not some profane, ungodly meat sacrifice which Mocks Jesus Death being stopped !! Satan would welcome that, he hates Jesus ad God, not Judaism.

So, I go where the Lord leads, its a Pre Trib Rapture, the TIMING allows nothing else but a Pre Trib Rapture. Israel and the Church have 2 very different callings.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Still isn't wrath. Unless you can prove it so with a direct and explicit statement akin to the description of the bowls, which are called wrath. The trumps are never called wrath, they cannot be wrath since believers are still present on earth up to the 7th trump. Wrath doesn't even begin, or is not present, until the 7th trump of Rev 11. 'Is come' is an existence of wrath in Rev 11:18; not preexisting, not a past beginning, not future continuation, just 'is', at that moment. 

And there is no Trinity either hey? As I showed it states the Vials FINISH UP the Wrath. If you can't figure out the Asteroid in Rev. 8 is God's Wrath I can't help you, the 6th Seal PAINTS a picture, by Jesus of that Wrath and it is described in Seal number 6, it DESCRIBES the First Four Trumps to a tee, and during those events its described as the Lamb's Wrath in the 6th Seal. So, just as Joel 2:31 calls it the DOTL (God's Wrath) we understand it to be God's Wrath. Ever wonder why God did not say Yeshua will be born to Mary and Joseph on this certain day? If that is you, you no doubt would be in the camp, NO.............this can't be the Messiah, we do not see his name, the date, the parents names etc. etc. SEE THE POINT? God gives us hints and shadows at times, you can't see the rapture because God doesn't hold up a huge sign, but I see it via the WHOLE THREAD of the Word of God, its the connected Holy Word, it all fits in a certain way, TIME TELLS show us the only timing of the Rapture can be pre trib, meanwhile you are waiting on  SIGN from God, it aint happening, thats not how Gid reveals His truths in full. 

The DOTL is described in Joel 2, look at Rev. 2 THATS IT.......You again needed capital letters to spell it out per se. is not going to happen.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Nope. The witnesses are in the full first half.

On 9/17/2023 at 10:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

That just bad Eschatology, they die at the 2nd Woe, do you ever think these things through brother? I'm not trying to be craby here, but you think all of the Judgments except the 3rd Woe happens in the First Half of the 70th week?  The Two-witnesses pray down all of the Plagues. They die at the 2nd Woe and thus only miss the 3rd Woe which they PRAYED DOWN before they died. There is no way their 1260 day Ministry is in the first half, it starts 75 days before the 2nd Half, WHY? Because they need to get Israel to repent BEFORE the DOTL, God's Wrath falls.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Matt 24 disputes this, as it disputes the entirety of the pretrib doctrine.

On 9/17/2023 at 10:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

You are in error.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

This only must be so for you and the pretrib crowd as it's a necessary part of the doctrine for the order to be such, but it mutes the facts of the scripture again.

When Rev 19 says,

" for the marriage of the Lamb is come," it is in existence at that moment, not before and there is no duration; "ēlthen" is the same aorist verb used in Rev 6:17 and 11:18. This is only happening now, not before, this is the moment. The aorist is a time/space moment, not an ongoing condition. Once again pretrib has filtered truth through the meat grinder of doctrine

Facts are facts, even if people miss those truths, the truths remain.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yeah, I deny there is truth on the pretrib threshing floor.

On 9/17/2023 at 10:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

Simple truths are simple truths.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yeah, yeah. Heard it all before. I'm immune to that kind of religious manipulation. Don't waste your effort.

On 9/17/2023 at 10:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

Which is why you cant see these facts I guess. You are afraid of the Holy Spirit?

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

You have to desist with this form of controlling speech. That may work on some, but it won't on me. Facts, scripture, normal understanding, accurate definitions, explicit statements, direct testimony and very, very few presuppositions and only as dictated by the text, will convince me.

You don't have that in full. Pretrib has never had it, and never will.

I will be rewarded for preaching the Truth brother. You will see very soon.

 

[Still Alive]

On 9/18/2023 at 5:04 PM, Last Daze said:

Could be.  I'm looking at 2025 myself.

To be frank, It could even be later this year, but I think the "bad players" on the world stage will wait until Harris is president for that particular facet of this "gem" to come to fruition.

[transmogrified]

19 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Just because the commanders of the son of perditions armed forces are christians which is common in his armed forces,and they have power to kill and torment other people in Jesus name ,does not mean they are doing God's will.Jesus commands them to not render evil for evil but obviously they are not keeping Jesus commandments.They are keeping  the son of perditions commandments which he has commanded them.

Quote

Just because the commanders of the son of perditions armed forces are christians

Christians are not working for the devil in his army, all whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will be following the beast...not the believers...

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which is common in his armed forces

Absolutely false...its those that loved not the truth that God gave over to strong delusion to believe the miracles and signs the anti christ does to deceive the world...the believers love the truth and will refuse his mark and will not worship him...he sets himself in the temple of God showing himself to be God, but WHO is worshiping him and the devil?

Rev. 13: 4 'And THEY (all the world...not the believers) worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast; and THEY (all the world...not the believers) worshipped the beast saying 'who is like unto the beast and who is able to make war with him...'

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and they have power to kill and torment other people in Jesus name

As he said the time will come when they will kill you thinking they do God a service...but see who is doing what...THEY (those within the beast system...not true believers) will kill YOU (the true believers, not those working within the beast system) ...so the beast that kills the two prophets are those who will kill you thinking they do God a service...the distinction is 'THEY (of the beast system) will kill YOU (the true believer) thinking they do God a service...not the beast system will kill those of the beast system thinking they do God a service...

And what of the scenario you are painting? At the second coming the beast is taken and with him the false prophet and they are cast alive into the lake of fire, but you have a system where God gathers the tares, (falsely portrayed as being the two prophets) as being taken up BEFORE THE LAST TRUMP in a rapture to heaven...if all the tares are gathered BEFORE the last trump, then why would it be that the beast and false prophet were not raptured up before Jesus comes as well? Because there was no resurrection of anyone before the last trump, much less a rapture to heaven for the wicked, much less two different raptures for the wicked at two different times...absolutely false....

The wicked are not resurrected BEFORE the last day...Scripture states he will judge the living and the dead AT his appearing and kingdom, not BEFORE his appearing and kingdom...so you have a resurrection posited that CANNOT AND WILL NOT HAPPEN BEFORE HE COMES.

Even the Thessalonians Paul told them about those who were persecuting them in that day...what did he say? He said it was a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to those who were troubling them...and what kind of tribulation was he talking about? He said he would take vengeance on them with flaming fire ( 2 Thess. 2:8) And when would this act of vengeance take place on those who were troubling them? He said:

'WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS...' and when would that be? Before he comes? No. Hardly...Not at all...he will be glorified in his saints at the last trump, at his appearing and kingdom...and these people who were persecuting the Thessalonians would suffer the vengeance of flaming fire WHEN HE COMES, not BEFORE HE COMES...BUT WHEN HE COMES...and he does not come before the last trump sounds. 

According to scripture God will take vengeance in flaming fire on the wicked dead WHEN HE COMES...NOT BEFORE HE COMES, as you have postulated...they were not already in flames of fire before he came..Paul said specifically he would take vengeance on them with flaming fire WHEN HE COMES TO BE GLORIFIED IN THE SAINTS...AND THE SAINTS DO NOT GET GLORIFIED UNTIL THE LAST TRUMP.

 

Caiphas would have also missed the alleged rapture for the wicked as he is seen on the earth AT THE SECOND COMING and SEES Jesus returning with all the saints in the clouds.. according to the false rapture for the wicked scenario he should have been resurrected and raptured to heaven along with the two prophets before the last trump sounded to be cast into the lake of fire allegedly up in heaven. No...He was ON EARTH, not in heaven when Jesus came...you are positing that the wicked are raptured up to heaven to the alleged lake of fire BEFORE the last trump sounds...but it did not happen to Caiphas, it did not happen to the beast and the false prophet, and it will not happen to anybody because there is no rapture for the wicked, nor is the lake of fire in heaven, nor will anyone get resurrected before the last day, much less all the wicked.

Seeing the wicked dead do not get judged UNTIL HIS APPEARING AND KINGDOM, it is utterly false to allege the two witnesses were resurrected and were judged before Jesus came...alas...NO ONE is resurrected before Jesus comes...alas...the premise that the two witnesses were resurrected before his appearing and kingdom is false..and because no one is resurrected before the last trump, then the resurrection and ascension of the two prophets into heaven happened at the last trump...making it perfectly clear that the wicked dead are on the earth at his coming and are not up in heaven, which also confirms the fact that the ONLY ones who ascend up to heaven are the Saints of the most high God.. making it also perfectly clear that the two witnesses were among those who ascended into heaven, making it also perfectly clear that they were among the dead in Christ who rose first, and will be among all the other saints of God who ascend up to heaven at the Second Coming.

But the scripture shows when Jesus comes...i.e. when he is ON THE EARTH, all people are gathered before him...the sheep and the goats...according to the false rapture for the wicked scenario the goats would have already been resurrected and cast into the fire BEFORE Jesus came, but the scripture shows them all before the Lord ON THE EARTH, and then given the sentence to be cast into everlasting fire...did God remove all the people in heaven that he had just cast into the lake of fire before the last trumpet and send them back down to the earth so when he says depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire, they would get raptured back up to heaven to be cast again into the lake of fire again...No...God does not bring people out of the lake of fire to be judged and then cast them back into the lake of fire...nor is the lake of fire in heaven, nor are there any raptures for the wicked to be caught up the heaven...nor does God bring the wicked down from heaven to be judged...nor was there another rapture after the last trump for the beast and the false prophet to be taken to heaven so they could be cast into the lake of fire along with the two prophets that had been taken there before the last trump sounded...NO NO NO...none if this is true...THERE IS NO RAPTURE FOR WICKED PEOPLE TO GO TO HEAVEN...

No when Jesus comes it says every eye shall see him, even those that pierced him...all the tares are gathered first as is shown with Caiphas...HE IS NOT IN HEAVEN IN THE LAKE OF FIRE WHEN JESUS COMES, as shown in the false rapture to heaven for the wicked scenario.

According to the false rapture to heaven for the wicked scenario, he should have already been resurrected and raptured to heaven and cast into the lake of fire along with the two prophets BEFORE the last trump sounded, but here he is SEEING Jesus coming in the clouds...if he were up in heaven according to the false rapture to heaven for the wicked theory he would not be seeing Jesus COMING toward him in the clouds, but rather would be seeing Jesus going AWAY from him down to the earth...but alas, he is not in heaven as the false rapture for the wicked to heaven before the last trump would presume, but rather he is ON THE EARTH, as are all the other wicked dead who are now waiting to be judged by Jesus when he comes...as it states in Psalms 96: 13 'For HE COMETH, for he COMETH to judge the earth; whereas the false rapture for the wicked to heaven doctrine would be 'For HE SENDETH, for HE SENDETH, the wicked to heaven so he can  judge them...God does not rapture the wicked to heaven to judge them, rather ...he COMES DOWN TO THE EARTH because that is where all people will be gathered...according to Matthew 25

When the Son of man shall COME, in other words, he is not in heaven anymore, but rather he is ON THE EARTH...then what happens? And before him, or before Jesus  (who is ON THE EARTH, NOT IN HEAVEN) shall be gathered all people...where are all the people? Are they in heaven? No...where are the goats? Are they already in the lake of fire as the false rapture to heaven for the wicked theory would propose.....NO. NO. and NO. They are on the earth...Where are the sheep? They are on the earth... NO ONE IS IN HEAVEN AT THE SECOND COMING...all the saints have descended down to the earth with Jesus and the so both sheep and goats are now being judged ON THE EARTH...

Why does Jesus judge the goats WHEN HE COMES TO THE EARTH, if they had already been raptured to heaven BEFORE the last trump and cast into the lake of fire according to the false rapture for the wicked to heaven theory? Because the wicked were never raptured to heaven, nor had anyone been cast into the lake of fire BEFORE Jesus came. This is absolutely false...

When is the time of the dead that they should be judged? According to the false rapture for the wicked to heaven theory, they would have already been cast into the lake of fire BEFORE THE LAST TRUMPET...But according to Rev. 11:18 AT THE LAST TRUMP is the time of the dead that they should be judged...at the same time all the saints rewarded is the same time the wicked are judged, and the righteous are not rewarded BEFORE the last trump...there is no resurrection for ANYONE BEFORE THE LAST TRUMP sounds..the theory that the wicked dead are raptured to heaven and cast into the lake of fire BEFORE the last trump sounded is completely false ...everyone is resurrected on the last day...not before the last day, not after the last day, not before the last trump, not after the last trump, but AT THE LAST TRUMP, AT THE LAST DAY.