The Problem With Evolution Part 2- Animals

[Still Alive]

1 minute ago, Sparks said:

Yes, I don't agree with the Catholic message, at all.  Nice people, but I disagree with their Pope and their beliefs.

My daughter and her new husband are now hard core Catholics. I mean "pre-vatican II". He used to be Greek Orthodox and she used to think the Catholic church was a cult.

Anyway, I've discussed some of their odd beliefs with them, like the eucharist and Mary being ever virgin. But when I was visiting them in Seattle a month ago I was floored by another belief they have: The earth is the "literal" center of the universe. i.e. everything PHYSICALLY spins around the Earth, and the earth is solid, stable, and doesn't move. 

It's like talking with flat earthers and moon landing deniers. I honestly thought they were joking at first.

[Sparks]

52 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

My daughter and her new husband are now hard core Catholics. I mean "pre-vatican II". He used to be Greek Orthodox and she used to think the Catholic church was a cult.

Anyway, I've discussed some of their odd beliefs with them, like the eucharist and Mary being ever virgin. But when I was visiting them in Seattle a month ago I was floored by another belief they have: The earth is the "literal" center of the universe. i.e. everything PHYSICALLY spins around the Earth, and the earth is solid, stable, and doesn't move. 

It's like talking with flat earthers and moon landing deniers. I honestly thought they were joking at first.

Catholics seem to believe that you cannot be saved without their church, that your works determines salvation, that you wait until after your death to see if God saved you rather than accepting the Gift during your lifetime, and more.  I cannot believe what they believe.

[RV_Wizard]

11 hours ago, Scott Free said:

Yes, our beliefs are limited. It is silly to think God is providing us with the complete picture. It is also questionable if someone proclaims they alone have all the answers. There is a reason there are 45,000 denominations. Scripture is not that crystal clear. The problem is not God, it is limits of human capacity to understand and to preserve faith for our immature spirituality.

God provides us with what we need to know.  He explained the origin of the universe around us and of our origins as humans.  Jesus had all the answers and He assured us that the Scriptures were accurate and the inspired word of God.  There are many denominations because so many people pick the things they agree with and ignore the ones they do not agree with.  Jesus said, "Nobody comes to the Father but by me."  Does that mean you can deny the authority of Jesus and get to Heaven?  Nope.  Sorry.  

By Adam, sin and death came into the world.

By Noah, humanity was saved from extinction.

By Jesus, Grace was extended to all who believe.

[RV_Wizard]

10 hours ago, Scott Free said:

 "They do not know everything, but what they know they truly know because they have met and accepted Jesus personally as Lord and Savior. Unlike the others, the man humbly begins with his limitations in knowledge." John 9:25-29

 "Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready." 1 Corinthians 3:1-2

 "Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture!" I Corinthians 13:9

 "And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know." 1 Corinthians 8:2

 "Let no one deceive himself. If any of you thinks he is wise in this age, he should become foolish, so that he may become wise." 1 Corinthians 3:18

 “Can you discover the depths of God? Can you discover the limits of the Almighty? Job 11:7

"Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is too high, I cannot attain to it." Psalm 139:6

"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!" Romans 11:33

Nice collection, but none of them contradict the truth Moses recorded in the book of Genesis.  There are many things God did not reveal to us.  That's even more reason not to reject the things He DID reveal.

[The Barbarian]

4 hours ago, Sparks said:

Catholics seem to believe that you cannot be saved without their church

Actually, that's false. 

https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

4 hours ago, Sparks said:

that your works determines salvation

God says that one is justified by works as well as by faith.   Catholics believe Him.

4 hours ago, Sparks said:

I cannot believe what they believe.

Fortunately, your salvation does not depend on believing His word on this.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 

[The Barbarian]

4 hours ago, Still Alive said:

But when I was visiting them in Seattle a month ago I was floored by another belief they have: The earth is the "literal" center of the universe. i.e. everything PHYSICALLY spins around the Earth, and the earth is solid, stable, and doesn't move. 

The Catholic Church does not teach this error.   It doesn't teach creationism or polygenism or any other such man-made doctrines.

But if you happen to believe such things, it's not a salvation issue.

 

[Scott Free]

17 hours ago, Sparks said:

As for evolution theory, it cannot even make it's own case. 

Yes, I agree. In science it is understood that an idea doesn't need to be true, it just needs to achieve an objective. Like helping in the practice of DNA modification. God as the source of creation is useless information outside of Faith. I do not think they are showing malice, we are simply off their radar.

[Scott Free]

12 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Nice collection, but none of them contradict the truth Moses recorded in the book of Genesis.  There are many things God did not reveal to us.  That's even more reason not to reject the things He DID reveal.

I am sorry, the Bible doesn't have books on paleography and social anthropology. Guess I am wrong after all. Silly me for asserting unverifiable information. That is not the first time I did something that cringey.

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Sparks said:

Saved = Salvation

Shalom, Sparks.

This is a VERY important topic; so, consequently, it's important to get it right. The word "saved" is the past tense of the verb, "to save," and "salvation" is the noun formed from that word. This English word is used for the translation of "יָשַׁע" ("yaasha` ", Strong's H3467) in Hebrew, and "σῴζω" ("soozoo", Strong's G4982) in Greek, which was the Greek word used to translate the Hebrew word. The word means "to save; to rescue; to deliver." The Greek form is found in Romans 10:13:

Romans 10:13 (KJV)

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

(Here's the Greek:

13 πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα Κυρίου σωθήσεται.

and "σωθήσεται," transliterated as "sootheesetai," is the future, indicative, passive form of "soozoo" for the 3rd person, singular, "[s/he] shall be saved; shall be rescued; shall be delivered.")

BUT, this verse in Romans 10:13 is a QUOTATION from Joel 2:32:

Joel 2:32 (KJV)

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

(Here's the Hebrew, read from right to left:

וְהָיָ֗ה כֹּ֧ל אֲשֶׁר־יִקְרָ֛א בְּשֵׁ֥ם יְהוָ֖ה יִמָּלֵ֑ט כִּ֠י בְּהַר־צִיֹּ֨ון וּבִירוּשָׁלִַ֜ם תִּֽהְיֶ֣ה פְלֵיטָ֗ה כַּֽאֲשֶׁר֙ אָמַ֣ר יְהוָ֔ה וּבַ֨שְּׂרִידִ֔ים אֲשֶׁ֥ר יְהוָ֖ה קֹרֵֽא׃

This is transliterated, read left to right, as ...

32 Vhaayaah kol 'asher-yiqraa' bsheem YHWH yimmaaleeT kiy bhar-Tsiyyown uwViYruwshaalaim tihyeh pleeyTaah ka'asher 'aamar YHWH uwVassriydiym 'asher YHWH qoree':

It translates, word-for-word, to ...

32 And-it-shall-be all that-call in-name of-YHWH shall-slip-away for in-mountain-of-Tsiown/Zion and-in-Jerusalem shall-be an-escape like-that has-said YHWH and-in-the-remnant that YHWH shall-call:)

Here's the verse in context:

Joel 2:28-32; 3:1-2 (KJV)

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. 
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

That's a LITTLE different than ...

13 hours ago, Sparks said:

Salvation is about being forgiven your sins, and NOT being judged at the Great White Throne (a place for the lost, hell and a serious lack of fire insurance). 

What happens in our lives after being saved determines a lot for us.  Our judgement at the Bema Seat (we still go before our Lord to account for our lives, but not for punishment), and what we do for Christ affects our after life.  If someone does nothing at all once they are saved, they are still saved.  They won't face hell or personally pay for sin-debts that we would have paid had our Lord not paid them for us.

wouldn't you say? All this that you've written comes from theology based on several passages of Scripture, but it's not what the quotation is talking about!

13 hours ago, Sparks said:

Personally, I like the idea of living outside the city.  I want a small corner of heaven to myself, without the hustle and bustle of a city.  

That's what the New Earth is for! It's where the New Jerusalem shall land. The New Jerusalem will be where all the "hustle and bustle" will be, and the New Earth will be our "backyard." It's also where "all the nations of the world" will be.

[Scott Free]

18 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I prefer to follow what Jesus and the disciples did: Share the message, and leave it to the hearers to embrace it or reject it.

I feel ya. Jesus seemed to constantly expose the disciples dogmatic views.

"And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of." Luke 9:54-55

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Scott Free