If A Believer Falls Away, It Is Impossible To Be Renewed By Repentance

[Mr. M]

16 hours ago, Mozart's Starling said:

This basically is what "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" effectively is right? To receive the Holy Spirit and knowingly refuse to let it change you or accept the guidance it brings. The only unforgivable sin.

 

12 hours ago, PATrobas said:

To blaspheme the H.S. is to reject that message and speak evil of it

Thanks for sharing your views on the meaning of "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". 

It would be appropriate then to first review where this expression is found in Gospels.

Matthew 12:22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?” 24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

In response, Jesus mocks their assertion and then states unequivocally how the demon was cast out. 

27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Now we hear the unforgivable sin defined:

31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

So to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is to attribute to some other agency what is the work of God's Spirit alone. Now I understand that you felt like the author is referring to this by saying"

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

He does not say that falling away from Christ is unforgivable, for even Jesus had said "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him". The author does not say that one who has fallen away cannot be forgiven, he says there is no longer place for repentance, and then states exactly why: "seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.". No mention of speaking against the Holy Spirit. This is the crux of the topic, that repentance is not the same as confessing and receiving forgiveness. Repentance is defined as believing the Gospel and turning to God based on that testimony. This is called reconciliation. When Peter announced "repent for the remission of sin, and you will receive the promise of the Holy Spirit", thousands believed and received, no one came forth and confessed their sins to receive forgiveness and enter into the new life in Christ. Here is how Paul summarizes the Gospel before the Ephesian elders:

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Returning to Romans, 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Repentance brings reconciliation with God, a restored relationship. This relationship is salvation by grace through faith in Christ. Here is where the misunderstanding arises. So many people have been told that if they sin, they need only confess to the Lord, or repent to the Father and ask to be restored. This is incorrect, and exactly what the author is addressing, and why.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

To think that you can fall away from the fellowship in Christ and simply ask God to take you back is error, because as the author states, it is the same as asking the Father to crucify His Son again and again, bringing an open shame. Once fellowship is established, if then broken, restoration comes from confessing and receiving forgiveness in Christ.

Jesus taught that even if your brother sins against you repeatedly, and then comes to you and repents, which often includes making restitution to the one who was harmed, but that is another topic. Jesus never, ever says that if we sin, we can come to His Father in repentance and He will restore you. And why is that?

1 Co 8:12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 

We are reconciled to the Father simply by believing the testimony of the Son. Changing our mind. Repentance.

John 3:33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.

Now we can turn to 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

Now once again, I have heard time and time again that we can go the Lord and confess our sin to be forgiven. When I pointed out that the context of 1 John 1 is our fellowship with one another, and not making a private confession to God, my statement was met with skepticism. And yet, this is declared right from the beginning of his dissertation.

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Obviously, our desire is, or should be, to have a right relationship with the Father and with the Son, and this is established by the fellowship of the Saints in Light, in Christ, by the Spirit of Unity. One Body and One Spirit. The efficacy of the blood in cleansing us of sin is found in Christ, in the proper functioning of His Body. This is the apostolic doctrine throughout. Consider an example from First Corinthians. A brother was living in an adulterous relationship, and Paul addresses this in Chapter 5. He does not say take the adulterer outside and stone him, that would be how the Law of Moses would have us deal with sin to remove wickedness from Israel, which defiles the Land. He also does not say "have him repent and he will be forgiven." He is removed from the fellowship until he shows the proper contrition, then he can be forgiven by the Church. Jesus taught that when a brother sins against us and refuses to repent to us, that it is ultimately the Church's business to discipline him by rejecting him, until he repent before the Assembly. To suggest that someone can transgress, and merely repent to the Father, bypassing the Body of Christ is an anti Christ spirit.

9 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

No repentance of sin?  Meaning we don't have to quit sinning and we can live a lifestyle of sin???

 

9 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

All we do is confess out sin and keep on living in sin?

If you would simply say these things out loud you would realize how ridiculous the notion. Are we going to discuss Romans and not bother reading what it says?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

9 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

Repentance meaning to turn away from your sin, to change one's mind about sin and in quit doing it!

No. This is your error that the thread is correcting. Repentance means turning to God based on the testimony of the Son and being reconciled by believing the Gospel. To confess sin and receive forgiveness is in Christ.

Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

This life is found in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, as a member of the Body of Christ. This is the Doctrine of Christ. This is where confession is made when we sin. This is where restoration is made when we fall away. We can't just repent to God and be born again again and again as our brother has pointed out. This is to expect the Son to be crucified again and again, and bring Him to shame. 

2 John 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Mr. M

[Mr. M]

@Mozart's Starling, @PATrobas,

For further insights, this is being discussed here.

 

[enoob57]

Yes 
2 Corinthians 7:10 (KJV)
[10] For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
As this repentance is where we found the Scriptural truth that nothing in ourselves or the world we were in is worthy of Jesus' keeping... as this reality comes at the foot of the cross where I with no bargaining ability whatsoever cried out in this empty void place for Jesus to save me... in this nothingness The Holy Spirit (The Spirit of Christ 1Pet 1:10-12)  came into my being and performed a regeneration of spiritual place within and joined that place with me- forming s/Spiritual bond of eternity ...
Hebrews 13:5 (KJV)
[5] Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 

No person can repeat this reality as it is a once done by God and cannot be undone by anything that comes against Him thus it can never be repented of!

Confession is the process of keeping one's tap open so that the Love of The Holy Spirit is unhindered to flow out of my being into others as witness of The Lord...

The problem with a works-based theology is source:

The Lord has identified this truth:
James 3:11 (KJV)
[11] Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
[12] Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

The point of the above is 'source' determines the 'IS' of everything... so when people try to convince you that righteousness can come from this world or manipulation of said source (this world) to produce righteousness they have not learned the lesson God is trying to teach us here:
Matthew 7:21 (KJV)
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

When God has confessed the world to be darkness
Matthew 4:16 (KJV)
[16] The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.[17] From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

and all that are in it sinners...
Romans 3:10 (KJV)
[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
[11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
[12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

how can one manipulate these things to bring about righteousness? It is the righteousness of Jesus that allows us to love here and this work, (love), as it is from above not of here >as it's source< is from God Himself in The Person of The Holy Spirit... 

THUS you cannot place value upon that which is not valued by God... 

2 Peter 3:11 (KJV)
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

One sure manner is not trying to convince people that the manipulation of this world and the people in it brings salvation in God or perfection of any kind...

[Mr. M]

25 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

One sure manner is not trying to convince people that the manipulation of this world and the people in it brings salvation in God or perfection of any kind...

1 Corinthians 5:6-8 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Sincerity and Truth found in the full testimony of Christ, not "here a little, there a little" forming doctrines of theology and academic debate. I truly believe that we can "break up our fallow ground" and find edifying fellowship on this forum. I have always valued your input.

Shabbat shalom!

[Neighbor]

Keeping my own life simple;

I choose not to test the limits if there are any to my Lord's Grace. I seek not any excuse for ill behavior nor thought of ill behavior.

Instead I take to heart that I am to run the race as though to win it,  knowing that not everyone that runs in a race wins,- nor even finishes for that matter.I do not want to find an excuse note to present before my Lord. I do not seek comparison to any other individual I just know I am to run, as I learn to run ever harder.

The running is not easy as in allowing for any slothfulness. It is instead exhilarating, and as the book by Scott Hamilton mentions in it's title "winning changes everything".

Run to win!  Be a blessing to Jesus and be blessed by God. Make the title of this thread a moot topic.

 

[Mozart's Starling]

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

 

Thanks for sharing your views on the meaning of "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". 

It would be appropriate then to first review where this expression is found in Gospels.

Matthew 12:22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?” 24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

In response, Jesus mocks their assertion and then states unequivocally how the demon was cast out. 

27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Now we hear the unforgivable sin defined:

31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

So to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is to attribute to some other agency what is the work of God's Spirit alone. Now I understand that you felt like the author is referring to this by saying"

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

He does not say that falling away from Christ is unforgivable, for even Jesus had said "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him". The author does not say that one who has fallen away cannot be forgiven, he says there is no longer place for repentance, and then states exactly why: "seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.". No mention of speaking against the Holy Spirit. This is the crux of the topic, that repentance is not the same as confessing and receiving forgiveness. Repentance is defined as believing the Gospel and turning to God based on that testimony. This is called reconciliation. When Peter announced "repent for the remission of sin, and you will receive the promise of the Holy Spirit", thousands believed and received, no one came forth and confessed their sins to receive forgiveness and enter into the new life in Christ. Here is how Paul summarizes the Gospel before the Ephesian elders:

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Returning to Romans, 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Repentance brings reconciliation with God, a restored relationship. This relationship is salvation by grace through faith in Christ. Here is where the misunderstanding arises. So many people have been told that if they sin, they need only confess to the Lord, or repent to the Father and ask to be restored. This is incorrect, and exactly what the author is addressing, and why.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

To think that you can fall away from the fellowship in Christ and simply ask God to take you back is error, because as the author states, it is the same as asking the Father to crucify His Son again and again, bringing an open shame. Once fellowship is established, if then broken, restoration comes from confessing and receiving forgiveness in Christ.

Jesus taught that even if your brother sins against you repeatedly, and then comes to you and repents, which often includes making restitution to the one who was harmed, but that is another topic. Jesus never, ever says that if we sin, we can come to His Father in repentance and He will restore you. And why is that?

1 Co 8:12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 

We are reconciled to the Father simply by believing the testimony of the Son. Changing our mind. Repentance.

John 3:33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.

Now we can turn to 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

Now once again, I have heard time and time again that we can go the Lord and confess our sin to be forgiven. When I pointed out that the context of 1 John 1 is our fellowship with one another, and not making a private confession to God, my statement was met with skepticism. And yet, this is declared right from the beginning of his dissertation.

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Obviously, our desire is, or should be, to have a right relationship with the Father and with the Son, and this is established by the fellowship of the Saints in Light, in Christ, by the Spirit of Unity. One Body and One Spirit. The efficacy of the blood in cleansing us of sin is found in Christ, in the proper functioning of His Body. This is the apostolic doctrine throughout. Consider an example from First Corinthians. A brother was living in an adulterous relationship, and Paul addresses this in Chapter 5. He does not say take the adulterer outside and stone him, that would be how the Law of Moses would have us deal with sin to remove wickedness from Israel, which defiles the Land. He also does not say "have him repent and he will be forgiven." He is removed from the fellowship until he shows the proper contrition, then he can be forgiven by the Church. Jesus taught that when a brother sins against us and refuses to repent to us, that it is ultimately the Church's business to discipline him by rejecting him, until he repent before the Assembly. To suggest that someone can transgress, and merely repent to the Father, bypassing the Body of Christ is an anti Christ spirit.

 

If you would simply say these things out loud you would realize how ridiculous the notion. Are we going to discuss Romans and not bother reading what it says?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

No. This is your error that the thread is correcting. Repentance means turning to God based on the testimony of the Son and being reconciled by believing the Gospel. To confess sin and receive forgiveness is in Christ.

Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

This life is found in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, as a member of the Body of Christ. This is the Doctrine of Christ. This is where confession is made when we sin. This is where restoration is made when we fall away. We can't just repent to God and be born again again and again as our brother has pointed out. This is to expect the Son to be crucified again and again, and bring Him to shame. 

2 John 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

I greatly appreciate your post. I think I have a better understanding now.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Mozart's Starling

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

The problem with a works-based theology

Tell us about obedience... does the Lord require us to turn from the devil and follow Him in order to receive forgiveness of sin?

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Or, can we say we believe in Jesus and still live like we did before we believe?

 

[Marathoner]

17 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

Tell us about obedience... does the Lord require us to turn from the devil and follow Him in order to receive forgiveness of sin?

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Or, can we say we believe in Jesus and still live like we did before we believe?

 

Propping up a straw man to bash isn't edifying nor commendable, my friend. Obeying His voice is what we do, yes? It is indeed. 

Assuming evil of others is the root of that argument; our liberty in the Spirit is not a "license" to do whatever we please. No one has asserted that on this forum. We are able to do whatever we please, but we seek to please the Lord of glory who has given us everything. 

None of us are perfect as the scriptural example of the apostles, prophets, Moses, and David teach us. The notion that we can't commit error of any kind without being cast out by the Lord is not only unscriptural, it's patently absurd. 

All sin is error as the apostle John informs us. As men and women, we can commit errors throughout any given day. Something that troubles me about that straw man argument: it denies our need to be taught by the Lord, disciplined by the Lord, and conformed to His image by the Holy Spirit.

The above happens after our salvation! God promised to teach us His ways... we wouldn't need to be taught if we magically knew all of His ways the day our lives were hidden in Christ. 

[enoob57]

47 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

Tell us about obedience... does the Lord require us to turn from the devil and follow Him in order to receive forgiveness of sin?

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Or, can we say we believe in Jesus and still live like we did before we believe?

 

You have what I wrote that answers this... you may not like the answer nevertheless it is Biblical... there's no way to receive what your trying to teach because of this one verse

Titus 3:5 (KJV)

[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, Stan Murff said:

Tell us about obedience... does the Lord require us to turn from the devil and follow Him in order to receive forgiveness of sin?

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Or, can we say we believe in Jesus and still live like we did before we believe?

 

The do to get people rarely can turn from that error in my experience...