12 Reasons I Know that I am Eternally Secure (I am a Child of God)!

[Marathoner]

15 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

I was with you up until the last paragraph - can you please 'splain that a little more? 

Of course.

Men who sit in judgment over others expect their notions to be satisfied by God, whom they believe operates according to their expectations. Hence, they have God "all figured out." Anyone who disagrees with them is in error, isn't saved, etc. You might think of this as the root of divisions/schisms. 

A real life example: there is a community of Amish-Mennonites where men are required to wear light blue shirts buttoned to the top. A man in this community wore a white shirt one day. He was excommunicated for doing that. Think it's absurd? Certainly! It happened. 

So, in order for someone to be born again/taught by God/etc., they must meet all of the criteria of these men. The one they judge must agree with them without hesitation (sycophantic).

Another example that might be more relevant: one must speak in tongues to be filled with the Spirit of God. Those who disagree are in error or aren't saved. Schisms abound.

[Ray12614]

On 9/17/2023 at 9:25 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Your post is very informative and illustrated. It took a while, but with an open mind, I have come to understand your exegesis, and it appears sound from my limited understanding. I am not debating OSAS; I will only ask what we do with all the conditional clauses (if, to the end, etc.) on Salvation. But that is not why I chose to reply; I am excited, I anticipate we are the terminal generation.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

For the first time in history, we see the convergence of everything prophetic for our generation exponentially increasing, pointing to the nearness of the seven-year Tribulation.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

As you know, there is precedence in scripture of 6,000 years and Israel's feasts and observances of God's plan and timing, followed by a millennium, or a total of 7,000 years, as the Genesis restoration account alludes. As you state, two thousand years for the church age (or the age of Grace) is almost complete.

No one can accurately date the exact year of Jesus's birth or death, and it usually has a 3–5-year estimation for the calendar and other unknowns. But the point is, those two millenniums are up somewhere around 2033, give or take a few years. There is no doubt in my mind we are in that season.

There are no signs or anything to look for on Jesus's imminent return (only be ready and prepared) to snatch His bride the church. I am pre-trib not to beat another proverbial horse to death on the timing of the harpazo. That means, if the Tribulation is as close as I suspect, how much closer are our redemption and glorified bodies? That gives me goosebumps in anticipation.

 

Interesting about end time timings, which I am very unlearned about I have to admit. I have heard alot about this topic but have never really studied it myself. All I know is that my spirit bears witness as to the season we are in, and believe it is close.

If you could point me to materials, or, to a worthy post that might help me that would be appreciated.

By the way . . . some people tell me that deep fried worms taste very good . . . LOL

 

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, Ray12614 said:

Interesting about end time timings, which I am very unlearned about I have to admit. I have heard alot about this topic but have never really studied it myself. All I know is that my spirit bears witness as to the season we are in, and believe it is close.

If you could point me to materials, or, to a worthy post that might help me that would be appreciated.

By the way . . . some people tell me that deep fried worms taste very good . . . LOL

 

I am unsure how to answer your question, but I will take the long road and try it. Biblical prophetic knowledge and understanding are a lifelong process, requiring hermeneutic hygiene, context, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I never claim my view is the correct one. It is beneficial to hash out our exegesis on this forum with an open mind; iron sharpens iron.

Daniel 12:4 (KJV) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Contrary to popular opinion, I believe there is a dual meaning Daniel gives above, in addition to obvious modern implications of the contemporary age in which we live. I suggest Daniel is speaking of scripture (words) he is writing. Daniel did not understand much of what he was prophesying, nor anyone else, until the time of the end. At that time when disasters, remedial judgment, and prophetic fulfillment begin coming on like a woman in travail, many will start flipping the pages of biblical prophecy to find out what is going on and what they can expect.

Our Canon is roughly one-third prophetic; if that much scripture is devoted, it must be important and studied, especially by that generation witnessing it. Most churches today, including my own, neglect any prophetic study. Everyone now sees (save a specific segment) the world going down the proverbial toilet bowl with Christian morals, ethics, and values. No need to mention alternative lifestyles, abortion, gender identity and pronouns, ethnic and social division, counter-culture, etc. Nor is the world becoming more dangerous by the day, with wars and rumors of wars, disasters, murder, lawlessness, pestilence, and plague. World events and alignments are accurate and on schedule as predicted.

General, technological, and biblical knowledge and understanding are unfolding before our eyes; surprise, we’re here. What previous generation strung together these two words, Artificial Intelligence? With the increase in knowledge and biblical events, A.I. will have a profound impact.

Sitting here right now, I have exponentially more knowledge and access to knowledge and wisdom than all the patriarchs, prophets, and apostles combined with a few clicks of a mouse. I can read hundreds of interpretations of the Bible, thousands of commentaries from the anti-Nicene and early church fathers to modern scholarship, interpret Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, and watch modern-day scholars and sermons on YouTube and other media. No wonder the old-fashioned daily newspapers and print books are anything but obsolete.

With the satellite constellation, Elon Musk privately sending up on Space X, Antarctica, and the Gobi Desert will see the Two Witnesses lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem and ascend upward.

Regarding resources available to better study the Bible, I use LOGOS 10, Baptist Platinum, and SwordSearcher. I will not mention what I paid for the level of LOGOS I have, but they have a free and starter addition one can get. The only regret I have about LOGOS is I procrastinated and waited too long to get it because of the price. These software programs have taken me to the next level of biblical knowledge and understanding.

SwordSearcher is excellent value for what you get, and I frequently use it also. If memory serves, I think I paid $60.00 for it.

I have no experience with it, but I hear excellent comments about Accordance Bible Software. Also, one cannot go wrong purchasing an electronic Webster 1828 dictionary; it is biblically orientated and a must-have, as well as lexicons and commentaries in Bible study software programs.

I do not know; maybe this was not what you were asking.

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

On 9/19/2023 at 11:16 AM, Vine Abider said:

Yeah, most of the early church fathers seemed to believe that there must be faith AND works, as evidence of that true faith.  And I don't disagree. 

They believed that because they got is directly from God's Word!  And you don't disagree... until later you post things indicating you do in fact disagree. (flop flippin)

The Lord says the following thru the Apostle James:

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Apparently one is justified by faith AND by works.... and the man that believes justification is by faith only is a "vain" man.
 

On 9/19/2023 at 11:16 AM, Vine Abider said:

You and I have and likely will go around and around on this, bro, and it can be wearying.

Why would someone having a different view point weary anybody?

You can't change others, so let them have their view point and move on!  No sense in letting it weigh one your mind... unless, you think there's a chance their view point is right and you are fighting a losing battle to keep a position that not tenable!

I don't see my position and being my position... I search God's Word for HIS position and one must consider the whole counsel of God to do that and allow God's Word to dictate what we think.

That's not wearing to me at all because I'm simply posting what the Lord says without reading "scholars", "theologians", etc etc, because none of those guys matter at all compared to the Word of God.

That's one of the problems with seminary and bible colleges as they spend most of their time studying what some other guy thought the Lord said and it's always either a calvinist or a reformed viewpoint each of which is very problematic when compered to the whole counsel of God laid out in His Word.
 

 

On 9/19/2023 at 11:16 AM, Vine Abider said:

I must say I do object to what I see as a stereotype, that everyone who believes in eternal salvation then thinks or behaves a certain way.  Saying things like "everyone in the OSAS camp" to me is not productive, in my opinion, and not true - and it does little to promote fellowship in the light, in my opinion.

It is in fact a "camp" so to speak.  OSAS is something that came out of calvinism and reformed theology and not from God's Word so I've found that those believing in OSAS have their own little group going and they like to tag team those that don't agree with them

Most OSAS guys I've come across call them selves a camp or a community and enjoy looking at it that way... as they claim anybody that disagrees with them is trying to earn their way to Heaven  

They probably have their own OSAS softball team sponsored by OSAS Construction Inc who buys their uniforms from a OSAS vendor who delivers them in OSAS delivery trucks long with OSAS bottled water!

In the end it's all good fun and the Lord will judge accordingly... based on what He said of course.  I don't take any of this personally and I don't think anybody else should either.

 

On 9/19/2023 at 11:16 AM, Vine Abider said:

A question: Hopefully through the various discourses on here, you have seen that at least most (if not all here) that believe in eternal salvation, do not think Christians once saved, should do whatever they like including living in sin.  Do you see that?

I've heard lots of OSAS folks say that, but then turn around and say it's not possible to lose your salvation so their message is conflicting and inconsistent.

It's a very hard argument to make when saying "no we should not live in sin" while also saying "it's not possible to lose your salvation" because some will believe one cannot be lost and live in sin anyway.

You can't really oppose the guy saying we can live in sin anyway without opposing the claim that  "it's not possible to lose your salvation"

I feel sorry for you OSAS guys cause you have a major conflict built in to your whole position which cannot really be resolves without opposing either "no we should not live in sin" or "it's not possible to lose your salvation" 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Stan Murff

[Vine Abider]

7 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

They believed that because they got is directly from God's Word!  And you don't disagree... until later you post things indicating you do in fact disagree. (flop flippin)

The Lord says the following thru the Apostle James:

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Apparently one is justified by faith AND by works.... and the man that believes justification is by faith only is a "vain" man.
 

Why would someone having a different view point weary anybody?

You can't change others, so let them have their view point and move on!  No sense in letting it weigh one your mind... unless, you think there's a chance their view point is right and you are fighting a losing battle to keep a position that not tenable!

I don't see my position and being my position... I search God's Word for HIS position and one must consider the whole counsel of God to do that and allow God's Word to dictate what we think.

That's not wearing to me at all because I'm simply posting what the Lord says without reading "scholars", "theologians", etc etc, because none of those guys matter at all compared to the Word of God.

That's one of the problems with seminary and bible colleges as they spend most of their time studying what some other guy thought the Lord said and it's always either a calvinist or a reformed viewpoint each of which is very problematic when compered to the whole counsel of God laid out in His Word.
 

 

It is in fact a "camp" so to speak.  OSAS is something that came out of calvinism and reformed theology and not from God's Word so I've found that those believing in OSAS have their own little group going and they like to tag team those that don't agree with them

Most OSAS guys I've come across call them selves a camp or a community and enjoy looking at it that way... as they claim anybody that disagrees with them is trying to earn their way to Heaven  

They probably have their own OSAS softball team sponsored by OSAS Construction Inc who buys their uniforms from a OSAS vendor who delivers them in OSAS delivery trucks long with OSAS bottled water!

In the end it's all good fun and the Lord will judge accordingly... based on what He said of course.  I don't take any of this personally and I don't think anybody else should either.

 

I've heard lots of OSAS folks say that, but then turn around and say it's not possible to lose your salvation so their message is conflicting and inconsistent.

It's a very hard argument to make when saying "no we should not live in sin" while also saying "it's not possible to lose your salvation" because some will believe one cannot be lost and live in sin anyway.

You can't really oppose the guy saying we can live in sin anyway without opposing the claim that  "it's not possible to lose your salvation"

I feel sorry for you OSAS guys cause you have a major conflict built in to your whole position which cannot really be resolves without opposing either "no we should not live in sin" or "it's not possible to lose your salvation" 

Quite a kettle to consider there bro, but I must say I don't think we're communicating very well here.  You took the time to type those points, so let me see if I can respond as simply as I can, to each of your three main things above.

A. It does appear the early church fathers believed true faith should be evidenced in works, and I agree.  Sorry if I didn't communicate that well.

B. Since I think you'll appreciate candidness . . . why I said the conversation was wearying was because - on various threads - it seems you won't acknowledge certain points myself and others make, then accuse others of doing the same with you; and repeatedly use scarecrow arguments in response and also making ad hominem attacks . . . and then deny using those tactics.

C. You've repeatedly stated that you are already sure what myself and others are saying about eternal salvation, but your responses don't demonstrate a good level of that understanding.  When you say that everyone who believes in OSAS is promoting a license to sin - that is simply not true!  I know lots of saints who believe in eternal salvation who have lived VERY moral lives dedicated to God for decades, and also encourage others empathically to NOT SIN (because of #3 below).

Please forgive me if I'm being a little blunt with some of my my responses above, but maybe/hopefully it will be clearer to you.

________________________________________________________________________

Let me try again and see if I can make something else clear about what we're discussing . . .  It seems you see this whole eternal salvation argument is just between two of the following views:

1. Once save always saved, with a license to sin (what you seem to think I believe)

2. Once saved there is a possibility of loosing that salvation, because of sinful living (what I think you believe)

But Stan, what some of us have been trying to relate to you is this: we see in scripture a third view actually portrayed (which goes a long way in reconciling views #1 and #2).  The 3rd one is:

3: Eternal life as children of God, however He will judge believer's works righteously* (what I actually believe)

* and this judgement of a believer's works might be quite severe to one who squandered the grace they were given by living in sin or disobedience to God

Please let me know if you have any questions or if any of that resonates with you - else I suspect we're just relegated to staying on this proverbial merry-go-round we've been riding!  

I hope and sincerely pray I've conveyed this effectively, and you can see there is a 3rd view of eternal salvation to consider . . . and may God shine light on us!

 

[steve morrow]

BORN  AGAIN  !!!!

 

TITUS 1:2  in hope of eternal life which  ---GOD  THAT  CANNOT  LIE--- promised before the world began

--1:3-- but hath in due times --manifested  ---  HIS  WORD-- through preaching which is committed unto me according to the commandment of  GOD  OUR  SAVIOUR

 

1 PETER 1:23  BEING  BORN  AGAIN  NOT  OF  CORRUPTIBLE  SEED  BUT  OF  INCORRUPTIBLE ---BY  THE  WORD  OF  GOD---  WHICH  LIVETH  AND  ABIDETH  FOREVER---

REVELATION 19:13  and  HE  was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood and  HIS  name is called  ---  THE  WORD  OF  GOD ---

JOHN 6:63  it is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words that I speak unto you they are ---SPIRIT---  and they are  ---LIFE---

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

[Vipergts]

Actually, these are two distinct, and different views. OSAS is a bond held by both parties, the counter is Pascal's Wager, placing all the work on Christ. The wager is that since God is not tangible in a scientific way, make the bet, say the words that He is, and live how you want. Clearly they could never be bothered to read that Christ directly nipped that in the bud; He knows that it is just words, so depart since He never knew them. OSAS is a daily journey with Christ, not a once a year prayer at the holidays. We will talk to God just because He is there, not only at holidays, or if trouble comes our way. Some days we will fall to our knees, and ask for the strength to make it another day, or fall to our knees to thank Him for the day that He has given. Jesus has been there when no one else could be bothered, trust and believe that I have a death grip on His hand. I would imagine that most of those here will say the same, so why would we not feel secure in the hand that we hold? Maybe change the name to DGOJ? Death grip on Jesus? 

[Ray12614]

20 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I am unsure how to answer your question, but I will take the long road and try it. Biblical prophetic knowledge and understanding are a lifelong process, requiring hermeneutic hygiene, context, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I never claim my view is the correct one. It is beneficial to hash out our exegesis on this forum with an open mind; iron sharpens iron.

Daniel 12:4 (KJV) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Contrary to popular opinion, I believe there is a dual meaning Daniel gives above, in addition to obvious modern implications of the contemporary age in which we live. I suggest Daniel is speaking of scripture (words) he is writing. Daniel did not understand much of what he was prophesying, nor anyone else, until the time of the end. At that time when disasters, remedial judgment, and prophetic fulfillment begin coming on like a woman in travail, many will start flipping the pages of biblical prophecy to find out what is going on and what they can expect.

Our Canon is roughly one-third prophetic; if that much scripture is devoted, it must be important and studied, especially by that generation witnessing it. Most churches today, including my own, neglect any prophetic study. Everyone now sees (save a specific segment) the world going down the proverbial toilet bowl with Christian morals, ethics, and values. No need to mention alternative lifestyles, abortion, gender identity and pronouns, ethnic and social division, counter-culture, etc. Nor is the world becoming more dangerous by the day, with wars and rumors of wars, disasters, murder, lawlessness, pestilence, and plague. World events and alignments are accurate and on schedule as predicted.

General, technological, and biblical knowledge and understanding are unfolding before our eyes; surprise, we’re here. What previous generation strung together these two words, Artificial Intelligence? With the increase in knowledge and biblical events, A.I. will have a profound impact.

Sitting here right now, I have exponentially more knowledge and access to knowledge and wisdom than all the patriarchs, prophets, and apostles combined with a few clicks of a mouse. I can read hundreds of interpretations of the Bible, thousands of commentaries from the anti-Nicene and early church fathers to modern scholarship, interpret Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, and watch modern-day scholars and sermons on YouTube and other media. No wonder the old-fashioned daily newspapers and print books are anything but obsolete.

With the satellite constellation, Elon Musk privately sending up on Space X, Antarctica, and the Gobi Desert will see the Two Witnesses lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem and ascend upward.

Regarding resources available to better study the Bible, I use LOGOS 10, Baptist Platinum, and SwordSearcher. I will not mention what I paid for the level of LOGOS I have, but they have a free and starter addition one can get. The only regret I have about LOGOS is I procrastinated and waited too long to get it because of the price. These software programs have taken me to the next level of biblical knowledge and understanding.

SwordSearcher is excellent value for what you get, and I frequently use it also. If memory serves, I think I paid $60.00 for it.

I have no experience with it, but I hear excellent comments about Accordance Bible Software. Also, one cannot go wrong purchasing an electronic Webster 1828 dictionary; it is biblically orientated and a must-have, as well as lexicons and commentaries in Bible study software programs.

I do not know; maybe this was not what you were asking.

Well . . . sort of I guess.  I was sort of thinking about where in scripture we find idea of the 2 thousand year age of the church age.

I will definately check out sword searcher and Accordance software. Regarding your other thoughts about satellites and other modern technology . . . I lean towards what you have said.

Thank you so much for your thought-out reply to me. Deeply appreciated. Wish we were closer to each other for some in-person fellowship, but, all that will come in due time . . . maybe before or after 2033 ???  LOL

Grace and Peace to you all . . . 

Ray . . . 

[Dennis1209]

39 minutes ago, Ray12614 said:

Well . . . sort of I guess.  I was sort of thinking about where in scripture we find idea of the 2 thousand year age of the church age.

I will definately check out sword searcher and Accordance software. Regarding your other thoughts about satellites and other modern technology . . . I lean towards what you have said.

Thank you so much for your thought-out reply to me. Deeply appreciated. Wish we were closer to each other for some in-person fellowship, but, all that will come in due time . . . maybe before or after 2033 ???  LOL

Grace and Peace to you all . . . 

Ray . . . 

That is a very good question, and it is not specifically addressed in scripture. I think we get that idea from dispensationalism, the six days of creation, and the seventh day of rest.

2 Peter 3:8 (KJV) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Rather than bombard you with a ton of my notes, I copied and pasted the good explanation below:

The sixth dispensation, the one in which we now live, is the Dispensation of Grace. It began with the New Covenant in Christ’s blood (Luke 22:20). This “Age of Grace” or “Church Age” occurs between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel 9:24. It starts with the coming of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost and ends with the Rapture of the church (1 Thessalonians 4). This dispensation is worldwide and includes both Jews and the Gentiles. Man’s responsibility during the Dispensation of Grace is to believe in Jesus, the Son of God (John 3:18). In this dispensation the Holy Spirit indwells believers as the Comforter (John 14:16-26). This dispensation has lasted for almost 2,000 years, and no one knows when it will end. We do know that it will end with the Rapture of all born-again believers from the earth to go to heaven with Christ. Following the Rapture will be the judgments of God lasting for seven years.

 

 

 

---

www.gotquestions.org

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

13 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

When you say that everyone who believes in OSAS is promoting a license to sin - that is simply not true!

Here's the thing... you may not intend to be supporting a license to sin and may speak against it... but other believers hear "one can never lose their salvation" so OSAS becomes a stumbling block for them concerning sin as they believe they can not stop sinning and still go to Heaven.

So ultimately OSAS does cause many to believe they can live in sin and it matters not because they are being told by OSAS people that "one can never lose their salvation"

So you may very well be living right before the Lord not knowingly or willingly doing sinful things, but that doesn't mean the OSAS message is not causing others to believe it is a license to sin.


 

13 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

3: Eternal life as children of God, however He will judge believer's works righteously* (what I actually believe)

 

This is insinuating that one can live in sin and only lose a few rewards and still go to Heaven which is not biblical when one looks at the whole counsel of God.

So no, I'm not using the 3rd view because there's other scriptures that warn that believers can in fact lose their salvation.