Did the 'dead' rise before Christ did?

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

" that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay." 

@Diaste 

this is a copy from the last sentence from your quote above. 

It says that David wrote about the Christ that He was not Abandoned in Hades.

David is telling that the Messiah, the Christ must die and after his death he was found in Hades...in his words and the words his people used the Christ at his death was found in Sheol. ("Hades" is a translation world and it is the place of the world's dead...and the Arhon or God of that place was the God of the dead (not just dead who had died physically but who were dead to God...) to be gathered to Hades needs to descend from the earth to the place of Hades in some place in the earth "in the underworld".

when David said "Sheol" he denotes the place of Abraham's Inheritance. The place God gave to Abraham and this is where Abraham gathered and welcomed his chosen children. In other words was spoken amongst the Israelites as the "Bossom of Abraham" or "the Paradise of Abraham", that I know, it could be other names but the place it is the same no matter what someone calls it. To go there one has to descend through the earth in the same way as when someone had to descend to Hades. As no one can descend through the earth while he is still alive in the body unless it is quick sand, but anyway he will soon die from asphyxiation. The point is no one could be found in his body in neither Hades or Sheol (the Bossom of Abraham aka the territorial place of Abraham or the Paradise of Abraham aka where the people of God were waiting in peace for the coming of the Messiah the Christ of God with the Heavenly Inheritance to come and fulfill the promise God had given to Abraham and to David. To do good to God's promise to lead them out from there and to Christ Heavenly Inheritance. 

the scriptures that you have referred to that what the say, that David and Jesus what Jesus said to the former thief on the Cross is the same thing that David foresee that the Christ at his death will descend to where Abraham and his chosen children who had died were gathered to way for the day Jesus had spoken in this way "that Abraham has seen my day and rejoice". And that what Jesus declares just before he died on the Cross that the time to be fulfilled what was promised to Abraham and what was prophesied by David is about to be fulfilled at the time when he will die. This is why he said to the former sinner who was not a sinner anymore because Jesus had forgiven his sins...this is why he told him when he dies he will find himself together with the righteous children of Abraham with Abraham. Jesus told him that you will be with me in the Paradise of Abraham because Jesus knew that he will die first and he will be the first one to go there and the forgiven thief will follow because he will die some time later on.

The Scriptures also says that Jesus Christ continue on his mission to preach the Gospel to all the rest of the world because he had died for the whole world and this was part of his mission as he had said before he died that the dead will hear his voice and those who believe will live.

Jesus was telling the people that the Heavenly Father has given to him to preach the Gospel to the dead...(including that he had to find him self amongst the dead to where they were...like the lost sheep Jesus went looking for them to where they were. 

Jesus also went to show himself to all the powers down there because everyone had to see the Christ of God the Messiah of God the one God had appointed that through him God will Judge everyone....this is why it was said at about the time before Jesus died that the Arhon of this world is about to be judged...all the powers down there had to see Jesus Christ to know that the day of their Judgement has come. AMEN.

If someone study carefully the words of David he will see that David and Abraham and John the Baptist and the people with them they had the hope and they believe that the Christ of God must die first before he comes to them there was not any other way....that the Christ of God was someone from their brethren because David said before his body began to decay he will be raised from the dead. 

The people with Abraham and David looked forward to the Christ death but at that time not the people who lived and where around Jesus who wanted Jesus Christ to be with them always. 

At that time they did not understand that also will happen that Jesus Christ will be always with them and they always with him but Jesus had to die first for that to happen because he had to include everyone from the rest of the world who would believe in him...

The disciples mission was to preach the Gospel to the living all over the world and that mission continues from Generation to Generation Jesus Christ mission was to preach the Gospel to all in the Place of the dead. 

Because his disciples will never go down there, will never descend to the place of the dead...they are alive to Jesus Christ and at the time of the death of their physical body they continued to be alive to the Heavenly Father and they will continue to be alive to Him because they will always be alive to Jesus Christ, in his name, in his Life, in his Eternal Life...

I was trying to make the point Jesus literally died and was resurrected. I feel the thrust of this topic is a claim anyone that goes to be with out Father never literally dies. I find no evidence to support that claim.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I got a much clearer view by learning the law itself.  Why would you, who hold Paul suspect, turn around and promote what Paul said?   And I'M the one 'cherry picking'?

That would be hypocrisy, not cherry picking. That's not what I did or said. 

You said:

On 9/18/2023 at 3:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

If you can't show me GOD SAYING IT, then I can't begin to be persuaded. 

A great many things were said by people in scripture. 

If you 'can't begin to be persuaded' unless it can be shown God said it, then why do you rely on Paul's words? Why do rely on anyone's words in all of scripture that aren't the words of God or Jesus? 

Apparently you don't but you sure use them all the same. 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Diaste

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Angels are seen and not made of EARTH.  Explain that.

I prefer to stay on topic. 

Address what I said about Jesus still bearing the scars and still in the same body as hung on the cross, not a new and different body, the same body made imperishable and immortal.

The saints that were resurrected with Jesus that appeared to many were likely recognized in form and face. They would have to be. If the body wasn't the same one in which they died then how would they be recognized and be evidence the resurrection was real hope based in fact and truth?

[Your closest friendnt]

20 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I was trying to make the point Jesus literally died and was resurrected. I feel the thrust of this topic is a claim anyone that goes to be with out Father never literally dies. I find no evidence to support that claim.

If it is about what Jesus said:

in John:11:26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. 

Do you believe this?”

Jesus is asking us to believe what he said and in his question he wants us to answer

yes "we believe that whoever lives by believing in him will never die."

The time Jesus said that it was before he shed his blood on the Cross for the forgiveness of the sins for whoever believes in him, including all the people of the world. Jesus said that before he sheds the blood of the Atonement for the sins of who ever believes in him in the whole world but he spoke looking ahead at the time when he will shed the blood for the sins of everyone in the world. At the time after his death on the Cross when the Gospel would be preach. 

Jesus speaking to the Jews and the rest of the Israelites he started with the word "whoever", "whoever lives by believing in me will never die."

Whoever is an inclusive word including everyone without any prejudice as in John 3:16 "who ever believes in him shall not perish but have ETERNAL LIFE. 

What Jesus said it is similar with John 3:16.

Jesus was referring to anyone who will believe in him after his death on the Cross like the people who believe in the day of Pentecost. 

Those people Peter preached the Gospel at one time they were in the yearly Atonement celebrated in the Law.

According to the Law the participants in that Atonement were alive to God for one year. The  Atonement God gave them at that time it was a yearly Atonement and after the expiration of the one year those who were alive to God having their sins forgiven will be DEAD TO GOD unless they partake in the New yearly Atonement..

(Or if they commit a sin during that year they would be dead to God till they offered a sacrifice for their sin then they can be included in the running Atonement for that year.

Jesus looking forwards to his ETERNAL ATONEMENT he was telling the people that whoever would believe in him for the forgiveness of their sins will have peace with God continuesly forever not only for the running year and even if they sin they still are alive to God because they are under the Eternal Atonement of the Slain Lamb of God...whi is Jesus Christ who shed the blood for the Atonement of our sins. 

Jesus said those who are under the Atonement of his blood having their sins forgiven by the blood of the Slain Lamb of God "never due" their sins are under the Atonement of the Slain Lamb of God Jesus Christ. 

Jesus was not talking about the physical death defiantly.

[FreeGrace]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Jn 10:28.  Your answer to your question is simply your opinion, and NOT based on facts.  So all that follows in your post is following error.

I'll just believe Gods words and not your opinion.  Somehow you think there are RANDOM words written in the words of God that have no meaning.  To each his own

Please explain what Jesus was teaching in John 10:28 then.  Those ARE God's words.

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

JOHN 13:36Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow Me now; but thou shalt follow Me afterwards.

FOLLOW HIM, NOT WAIT FOR HIM TO RETURN.  

Couldn't follow HIM until AFTER HE had GIVEN THE SIGN OF JONAH, three days in the grave and had returned to walk among them on the earth and they had to suffer the common death

Do you have any idea what Jesus told Peter?

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Since I've already explained this text to you, what is your point here?

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me.

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Your point here?

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

THAT ISN'T WAITING for HIS RETURN,that is following HIM.

Who says any differently?

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Your point?

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Once again, just quoting a lot of verses, with NO comment does no good.  I have no idea how you understand them, so I can't reply.

[FreeGrace]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

FreeGrace said: 

See?  Just more opinion without evidence.  Jesus gives the gift of eternal life WHEN one believes in Him, as John 5:24 SAYS.  "believers HAVE eternal life".

SO WE HAVE NO PHYSICAL DEATH

What kind of "conclusion" is this?  It seems you are trying to argue with Jesus Himself.  So it is YOUR green comment that is ridiculous.  Do you believe what Jesus SAID in that verse or not?  You are anything but clear in your comments.

Jesus SAID that "whoever believes HAS (as in possesses) eternal life".  And I quoted Heb 9:27 that says that it is APPOINTED ONCE for man to DIE.  So what's your problem?

It would seem you can't understand how someone can possess eternal life yet still die physically.  Am I right?  It is that kind of very limited thought process that has  gotten you into the confusion that you display.

Possessing eternal life doesn't prevent physical death.  It would be ridiculous to think that way.  Having eternal life means the believer will live with God forever.  Those who never believed and don't have eternal life will exist in torment forever.  I wouldn't call that living by any means.

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

WE JUST CHANGE BODIES.

What do you mean here?  Where is "IT WRITTEN"?  It isn't.  That's where.  You are just once again making up stuff in your confusion.

Our physical bodies are changed.  That's what Paul described in 1 Cor 15.  

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

If it is about what Jesus said:

in John:11:26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. 

Do you believe this?”

Jesus is asking us to believe what he said and in his question he wants us to answer

yes "we believe that whoever lives by believing in him will never die."

Yes. but there is more info on how and when and the nature that must be considered.

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

The time Jesus said that it was before he shed his blood on the Cross for the forgiveness of the sins for whoever believes in him, including all the people of the world. Jesus said that before he sheds the blood of the Atonement for the sins of who ever believes in him in the whole world but he spoke looking ahead at the time when he will shed the blood for the sins of everyone in the world. At the time after his death on the Cross when the Gospel would be preach. 

Jesus speaking to the Jews and the rest of the Israelites he started with the word "whoever", "whoever lives by believing in me will never die."

Whoever is an inclusive word including everyone without any prejudice as in John 3:16 "who ever believes in him shall not perish but have ETERNAL LIFE.

Yes. But not perish under what concept? You assume it's the grave. Scripture tells us it's never perish in the lake of fire. 

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

What Jesus said it is similar with John 3:16.

Jesus was referring to anyone who will believe in him after his death on the Cross like the people who believe in the day of Pentecost. 

Those people Peter preached the Gospel at one time they were in the yearly Atonement celebrated in the Law.

According to the Law the participants in that Atonement were alive to God for one year. The  Atonement God gave them at that time it was a yearly Atonement and after the expiration of the one year those who were alive to God having their sins forgiven will be DEAD TO GOD unless they partake in the New yearly Atonement..

(Or if they commit a sin during that year they would be dead to God till they offered a sacrifice for their sin then they can be included in the running Atonement for that year.

Jesus looking forwards to his ETERNAL ATONEMENT he was telling the people that whoever would believe in him for the forgiveness of their sins will have peace with God continuesly forever not only for the running year and even if they sin they still are alive to God because they are under the Eternal Atonement of the Slain Lamb of God...whi is Jesus Christ who shed the blood for the Atonement of our sins. 

Jesus said those who are under the Atonement of his blood having their sins forgiven by the blood of the Slain Lamb of God "never due" their sins are under the Atonement of the Slain Lamb of God Jesus Christ. 

Jesus was not talking about the physical death defiantly.

 

[FreeGrace]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

FreeGrace said: 

I've NEVER said the nonsense that you are accusing me of.  Or show me where.  Rather, you are having a hard time comprehending my posts.

Who do you say are resurrected when Christ returns?

I SAY the same thing the Bible SAYS.  ALL believers.  1 Cor 15:23

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  Those who have received the gift of life or those who are spiritually dead?

The FIRST resurrection will be all the saved.  They have received the gift of eternal life by means of faith.  I don't know what you mean by "gift of life".  That could simply refer to everyone who has been born alive.  Try to be more specific in your posts.  Even the spiritually dead did receive the "gift of life".

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  The LIVING or the DEAD

Both.  Read 1 Thess 4:13-17.  If that doesn't answer your question, ask me specifically what in that passage you don't comprehend.

[FreeGrace]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

FreeGrace said: 

The "dead in Christ" are physically dead, with bodies in the ground, but they are "at home with the Lord" as Paul wrote in 2 Cor 5:6,8.  

So, see?  You are still very confused about the whole issue.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Thanks for the verses.  But what is your point?  Are you ignoring 2 Cor 5:6,8?  Do you believe what Paul wrote or not?  And what do you think Paul was teaching in v.35-44?  Just quoting verses without any comment isn't helpful, since I have no idea what you understand about them.

[FreeGrace]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

FreeGrace said: 

The "dead in Christ" are physically dead, with bodies in the ground, but they are "at home with the Lord" as Paul wrote in 2 Cor 5:6,8.  

So, see?  You are still very confused about the whole issue.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

1 Co 15:49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So, it seems you are actually arguing with the apostle Paul then.  I can only feel sorry for you then.

We've gone around and around on this, and there is STILL confusion on your part.  It seems that you really don't want to understand.

So, go ahead and keep arguing with Jesus and Paul.  You've been given the answers.