Did the 'dead' rise before Christ did?

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

No, Jesus wasn't telling us that.  The Bible says that there is one (singular) resurrection of the saved, as well as one (singular) resurrection of the unsaved.

NO, that is YOU saying that, NOT the words of God as I have shown you many times.  You wishing it were true and saying it is true does not make it true.  



 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

No, Jesus wasn't telling us that.  The Bible says that there is one (singular) resurrection of the saved, as well as one (singular) resurrection of the unsaved.

Dan 12:2 -  Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:24 -  and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Acts 24:15 -  and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Blue refers to the saved.  Red refers to the unsaved.  

That said, now we look to WHEN the singular resurrection of the saved will occur.

1 Cor 15:23 -  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Blue words refer to the Second Advent (see Heb 9:28).  Green words refer to every saved person from Adam forward.  

Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Red words refer to the Second Advent, clearly.

Blue words refer to the culmination of every believer in humanity;  the resurrection and glorification of their bodies.

Every citation of a dead person returning to life before Jesus did was a resuscitation of their mortal physical body.  Otherwise, 1 Cor 15:23 CANNOT BE TRUE.  But it is true.

Also, we know from the text regarding Lazarus, who Jesus raised from the dead, he was still mortal since the Jews were planning to kill him as well.

John 12:9 Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. 10 So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well,

One final point about resurrection.  The resurrection of the saved will be 1,000 years BEFORE the resurrection of the unsaved.

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

v.4 shows that those beheaded were believers and "came to life", which is a direct reference to THE resurrection of all the saved.  See above.

The red words states plainly that the resurrection of the unsaved will be 1,000 years after the resurrection of the saved.  The blue words clearly identify the resurrection of the saved as the "first resurrection" of the 2 that the 3 verses above mention.

Even the 2 witnesses who are killed and come back to life will NOT receive a resurrection body as they are called home to heaven.  They will be coming back with Jesus and ALL the rest of the saints who have already died, and all of them will come back with Jesus at the Second Advent for their resurrection.

Go to the GREEK like you do when it supports your claims

[DeighAnn]

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Go to the GREEK like you do when it supports your claims

Never mind I will

1680 [e]    ἐλπίδα
elpida    a hope    N-AFS
2192 [e]    ἔχων
echōn    having    V-PPA-NMS
1519 [e]    εἰς
eis    in    Prep
3588 [e]    τὸν
ton    -    Art-AMS
2316 [e]    Θεόν,
Theon    God    N-AMS
3739 [e]    ἣν
hēn    which    RelPro-AFS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    also    Conj
846 [e]    αὐτοὶ
autoi    they    PPro-NM3P
3778 [e]    οὗτοι
houtoi    themselves    DPro-NMP
4327 [e]    προσδέχονται,
prosdechontai    await,    V-PIM/P-3P
386 [e]    ἀνάστασιν
anastasin    [that] a resurrection    N-AFS  SINGULAR
3195 [e]    μέλλειν
mellein    there is about    V-PNA
1510 [e]    ἔσεσθαι
esesthai    to be    V-FNM
1342 [e]    δικαίων
dikaiōn    of [the] just    Adj-GMP
5037 [e]    τε
te    both    Conj
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
94 [e]    ἀδίκων.
adikōn    of [the] unjust.    Adj-GMP



3195. melló ►
Strong's Concordance
melló: to be about to
Original Word: μέλλω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: melló
Phonetic Spelling: (mel'-lo)
Definition: to be about to
Usage: I intend, am about to; I delay, linger.
HELPS Word-studies
3195 méllō – properly, at the very point of acting; ready, "about to happen." 3195 (méllō) is used "in general of what is sure to happen" (J. Thayer).

 

5037. te ►
Strong's Concordance
te: and (denotes addition or connection)
Original Word: τέ
Part of Speech: Particle, Disjunctive Particle
Transliteration: te
Phonetic Spelling: (teh)
Definition: and (denotes addition or connection)
Usage: and, both.
HELPS Word-studies
5037 té (a conjunction) – "and both" ("both and"). 5037 /té ("and both") occurs 204 times in the NT and unfortunately is often not translated.

[When translated, 5037 (té) is usually rendered "and," "both and," or "and both."]


 

2532. kai ►
Strong's Concordance
kai: and, even, also
Original Word: καί
Part of Speech: Conjunction
Transliteration: kai
Phonetic Spelling: (kahee)
Definition: and, even, also
Usage: and, even, also, namely.
HELPS Word-studies
2532 kaí (the most common NT conjunction, used over 9,000 times) – and (also), very often, moreover, even, indeed (the context determines the exact sense).

[After 2532 (kaí), the most common word in the Greek NT is the definite article ("the"). 2532 (kaí) is never adversative, i.e. it never means "however" ("but") – unlike the principal conjunction (waw) in OT Hebrew (G. Archer).]

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by DeighAnn

[DeighAnn]

some of the 215 times  BOTH,  MOREOVER, and AND, are used

so we can discern just how far we have to TWIST

to get a SINGULAR resurrection OF BOTH the just and the unjust

TO BE MADE INTO 

2 RESURRECTIONS of SINGULAR groups


Matthew 22:10 Prtcl
GRK: εὗρον πονηρούς τε καὶ ἀγαθούς
NAS: all they found, both evil and good;
KJV: as many as they found, both bad and
INT: they found evil both and good


Matthew 27:48 Prtcl
GRK: σπόγγον πλήσας τε ὄξους καὶ
KJV: a spunge, and filled
INT: a sponge having filled [it] and with vinegar and

 

Luke 2:16 Prtcl
GRK: ἀνεῦραν τήν τε Μαριὰμ καὶ
INT: found both Mary and

Luke 12:45 Prtcl
GRK: παιδίσκας ἐσθίειν τε καὶ πίνειν
KJV: and maidens, and to eat and
INT: maid-servants to eat also and to drink

Luke 14:26 Prtcl
GRK: ἀδελφάς ἔτι τε καὶ τὴν
INT: sisters yes and also the

Luke 15:2 Prtcl
GRK: διεγόγγυζον οἵ τε Φαρισαῖοι καὶ
NAS: Both the Pharisees and the scribes
INT: grumbled both Pharisees and

Luke 21:11 Prtcl
GRK: σεισμοί τε μεγάλοι καὶ
KJV: And great earthquakes
INT: earthquakes both great and

Luke 21:11 Prtcl
GRK: ἔσονται φόβητρά τε καὶ ἀπ'
KJV: pestilences; and fearful sights
INT: will there be fearful sights also moreover from

Luke 22:66 Prtcl
GRK: λαοῦ ἀρχιερεῖς τε καὶ γραμματεῖς
NAS: assembled, both chief priests
KJV: of the people and the chief priests
INT: people chief priests both and scribes

Luke 23:12 Prtcl
GRK: φίλοι ὅ τε Ἡρῴδης καὶ
INT: friends both Herod and

Luke 24:20 Prtcl
GRK: ὅπως τε παρέδωκαν αὐτὸν
INT: that moreover delivered up him

John 2:15 Prtcl
GRK: ἱεροῦ τά τε πρόβατα καὶ
KJV: out of the temple, and the sheep, and
INT: temple both sheep and

John 4:42 Prtcl
GRK: τῇ τε γυναικὶ ἔλεγον
KJV: And said unto the woman,
INT: to and woman they said

John 6:18 Prtcl
GRK: ἥ τε θάλασσα ἀνέμου
KJV: And the sea arose
INT: and both [the] sea by a wind

Acts 1:1 Prtcl
GRK: ὁ ποιεῖν τε καὶ διδάσκειν
KJV: Jesus began both to do and
INT: to do both and to teach

Acts 1:8 Prtcl
GRK: μάρτυρες ἔν τε Ἰερουσαλὴμ καὶ
NAS: upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem,
KJV: witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem,
INT: witnesses in both Jerusalem and

Acts 1:13 Prtcl
GRK: καταμένοντες ὅ τε Πέτρος καὶ
KJV: where abode both Peter, and
INT: staying both Peter and

Acts 1:15 Prtcl
GRK: εἶπεν ἦν τε ὄχλος ὀνομάτων
KJV: and said, (the number
INT: said was moreover [the] number of names

Acts 2:9 Prtcl
GRK: Μεσοποταμίαν Ἰουδαίαν τε καὶ Καππαδοκίαν
KJV: in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea,
INT: Mesopotamia Judea also and Cappadocia

Acts 2:10 Prtcl
GRK: Φρυγίαν τε καὶ Παμφυλίαν
NAS: from Rome, both Jews
KJV: strangers of Rome, Jews and
INT: Phrygia both and Pamphylia

Acts 2:11 Prtcl
GRK: Ἰουδαῖοί τε καὶ προσήλυτοι
INT: Jews both and converts

Acts 2:33 Prtcl
GRK: ὑψωθεὶς τήν τε ἐπαγγελίαν τοῦ
KJV: of God exalted, and having received of
INT: having been exalted and [the] promise of the

Acts 2:37 Prtcl
GRK: καρδίαν εἶπόν τε πρὸς τὸν
KJV: in their heart, and said
INT: heart said moreover to

Acts 2:40 Prtcl
GRK: ἑτέροις τε λόγοις πλείοσιν
KJV: And with many other
INT: other moreover words many

Strong's Greek 5037
215 Occurrences

 

[Shilohsfoal]

47 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Still waiting for you to show it is of the 2nd advent and not the first.  Chapter 12 following 11 doesn't do that.  Once you answer, I will get back to answering your questions.   

 

Daniel 11:36

The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.

 

Chapter 11 shows the man of sin who exalts himself above all coming to his end in Daniel 11:45

 

Daniel 11:45

He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.

 

Now according to you ,this man of sin came to his end in 27 ad.Why then would Paul say this man of sin would perish at Christs coming?

 

2 Thes 2

 

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

 

You fail to see the man of sin did not come to his end in 27 ad as you suggest.

 

 

By the way,who are you saying was the man of sin was who exalted himself above all,and died in  27 ad anyway?Do you have a name for him?

Edited September 21, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[Shilohsfoal]

44 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

You ASSIGN 1st resurrection a TIME. Yet, ANYONE on whom the 2nd death hath no power would be of the 1st resurrection. 

How does every man resurrect in his own order if they all resurrect at the same time?   How is Christ the first fruits of them that slept but not the first fruits of them who went to sleep after?   How is it the living don't prevent the dead if the dead don't rise until the living do?   

I'm not the one saying the first resurrection has taken place.You are.

 

Far as I'm concerned the first resurection mentioned in revelation 20 has not taken place yet.

Revelation 20

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

⁵ But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

⁶ Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

On 9/18/2023 at 1:53 AM, DeighAnn said:

[Matthew 22:29-32]

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Wasn't Jesus telling us 'the dead' were already being resurrected here?

Shalom, DeighAnn.

I'm starting in this topic back at the beginning.

The answer to your question is, "No, Yeeshuwa` (Jesus) was talking to the Ts'duqqiym ('Righteous Ones,' 'Sadducees') here and was answering their argument AGAINST the Resurrection in the achariyt hayammiym ('end of days')! Read the WHOLE encounter to understand the interchange:

Matthew 22:23-33 (KJV)

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, WHICH SAY THAT THERE IS NO RESURRECTION, and asked him, 24Saying,

"Master, Moses said, 'If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27And last of all the woman died also. 28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her."

29 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For IN THE RESURRECTION they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels [messengers] of God in heaven. 31 But AS TOUCHING THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but OF THE LIVING." 

33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

And, Mattityahuw ("Matthew") was not the only witness to this exchange! Yochanan Marcus ("John Mark"), who probably wrote for Peter, said,

Mark 12:18-27 (KJV)

18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, WHICH SAY THERE IS NO RESURRECTION; and they asked him, saying, 

19 "Master, Moses wrote unto us, 'If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed. 21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. 22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. 23 IN THE RESURRECTION THEREFORE, WHEN THEY SHALL RISE, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife!"

24 And Jesus answering said unto them,

"Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For WHEN THEY SHALL RISE FROM THE DEAD, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. 26 And AS TOUCHING THE DEAD, THAT THEY RISE: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err!"

And, Lukas the Physician also noted the accounts of this instance:

Luke 20:27-40 (KJV)

27 Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, WHICH DENY THAT THERE IS ANY RESURRECTION; and they asked him, 28 Saying,

"Master, Moses wrote unto us, 'If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 29 There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. 31 And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife."

34 And Jesus answering said unto them,

"The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him."

39 Then certain of the scribes answering said,

"Master, thou hast well said." 

40 And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.

So, the Ts'duqqiym were trying to refute a RESURRECTION of the JUST! But, Yeeshuwa` simply told them that that would be when 'Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqoV (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) would rise again, too! THAT'S why God is "not a God of the dead, but of the living!"

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

NO, that is YOU saying that, NOT the words of God as I have shown you many times.  You wishing it were true and saying it is true does not make it true.  

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Sorry, Sister, but you need to LISTEN to your brother! The "te" (τε) particle is said below to be a DISJUNCTIVE particle, to show ADDITION! There's more than ONE "single resurrection!"

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Never mind I will

1680 [e]    ἐλπίδα
elpida    a hope    N-AFS
2192 [e]    ἔχων
echōn    having    V-PPA-NMS
1519 [e]    εἰς
eis    in    Prep
3588 [e]    τὸν
ton    -    Art-AMS
2316 [e]    Θεόν,
Theon    God    N-AMS
3739 [e]    ἣν
hēn    which    RelPro-AFS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    also    Conj
846 [e]    αὐτοὶ
autoi    they    PPro-NM3P
3778 [e]    οὗτοι
houtoi    themselves    DPro-NMP
4327 [e]    προσδέχονται,
prosdechontai    await,    V-PIM/P-3P
386 [e]    ἀνάστασιν
anastasin    [that] a resurrection    N-AFS  SINGULAR
3195 [e]    μέλλειν
mellein    there is about    V-PNA
1510 [e]    ἔσεσθαι
esesthai    to be    V-FNM
1342 [e]    δικαίων
dikaiōn    of [the] just    Adj-GMP
5037 [e]    τε
te    both    Conj
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
94 [e]    ἀδίκων.
adikōn    of [the] unjust.    Adj-GMP


3195. melló ►
Strong's Concordance
melló: to be about to
Original Word: μέλλω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: melló
Phonetic Spelling: (mel'-lo)
Definition: to be about to
Usage: I intend, am about to; I delay, linger.
HELPS Word-studies
3195 méllō – properly, at the very point of acting; ready, "about to happen." 3195 (méllō) is used "in general of what is sure to happen" (J. Thayer).
 

5037. te ►
Strong's Concordance
te: and (denotes addition or connection)
Original Word: τέ
Part of Speech: Particle, Disjunctive Particle
Transliteration: te
Phonetic Spelling: (teh)
Definition: and (denotes addition or connection)
Usage: and, both.
HELPS Word-studies
5037 té (a conjunction) – "and both" ("both and"). 5037 /té ("and both") occurs 204 times in the NT and unfortunately is often not translated.

[When translated, 5037 (té) is usually rendered "and," "both and," or "and both."]
 

2532. kai ►
Strong's Concordance
kai: and, even, also
Original Word: καί
Part of Speech: Conjunction
Transliteration: kai
Phonetic Spelling: (kahee)
Definition: and, even, also
Usage: and, even, also, namely.
HELPS Word-studies
2532 kaí (the most common NT conjunction, used over 9,000 times) – and (also), very often, moreover, even, indeed (the context determines the exact sense).

[After 2532 (kaí), the most common word in the Greek NT is the definite article ("the"). 2532 (kaí) is never adversative, i.e. it never means "however" ("but") – unlike the principal conjunction (waw) in OT Hebrew (G. Archer).]

 

It's not "one group of two"; it's "TWO one's!"

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I said:

No, Jesus wasn't telling us that.  The Bible says that there is one (singular) resurrection of the saved, as well as one (singular) resurrection of the unsaved.

NO, that is YOU saying that, NOT the words of God as I have shown you many times.

OK, so you didn't read my post.  Sad, because I gave the 3 verses that SAY there will be A (singular) resurrection for the saved and for the unsaved.  That is "WHAT IS WRITTEN" whether you know it or not.

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  You wishing it were true and saying it is true does not make it true.  

The only thing I wish for is that you would actually read what I post and quote from the Bible. 

Why not address the verses I shared and show me where my error is in understanding what the verses say?  That shouldn't be too difficult.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Go to the GREEK like you do when it supports your claims

If there are ANY of the verses I quoted that say something DIFFERENT in the Greek than the translation, please make your case.

Otherwise, you have no case.