Are you excited about the rapture?

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

I've been watching the discussion on tribulation. It is most interesting to se the different points of view. What I think many miss, and it is decisive, is that during the age of grace, we face MEN'S TRIBULATION. The tribulation can also be directly from  Satan, but he needs permission to attack us directly - like Job. Men hate God, they hate His prophets, they hate His Son Jesus and they hate His rules. So the Church lives and functions in enemy territory. But the day is coming when when mankind will have pushed things too far and God unleashes His TRIBULATION. This day is well documented.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee
...
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

For 2,000 years God will be gracious and have on offer, for all men, a place in His coming Kingdom. His disciples will preach this while turning the other cheek and praying for men like Nero. At the end of this age all men on earth will be given a choice. Who do they want as their POLITICAL Leader? This Jesus that has been taught by His disciples, or a charismatic man who promises peace to the world. The Choice is for the Beast. But the end is not yet.

Three and one half years later, this POLITICAL leader will make a claim to deity and claim sole worship. To strengthen his claim he will set himself up as God in the Holy of Holies in a Temple in Jerusalem. It is at this point that God's wrath is unleashed. It s reminiscent of Matthew 10:28. "Don't fear men ... but fear HIM WHO CAN ... ." Men have gone too far. And so, instead of having to further deal with a patient and forgiving God, they have to face the unimaginable. The CREATOR and SUSTAINER of the earth reverses His grace and make the earth unlivable.

There is a vast difference in dealing with the Beast and dealing with the ALL-Mighty. Men are creatures of agreement. They all agree that women have pain at childbirth. But they have not been there. They smirk and make snide jokes of the women they have witnessed in labor. But the just don't believe that it is so bad. So will it be on earth in THAT DAY. Pain - gnawing pain - unrelenting pain - unspeakable pain so that men scream for death. But they will be prevented by God. We all witnessed men and women jumping from the World Trade Center to escape flames. But men will have no escape this time.  The world's system will collapse. Men played god and LOST. Fame and wealth will not help one bit.

And, dear Christian, if you are caught playing with the enemy, if you are on the wrong side of the fence, if you are not spiritually mature in this grandest of harvests, YOU WILL JOIN THE REST OF MEN IN THEIR AGONY. The threat of Revelation 18:4 is made by a God Who has a long track record of keeping His Word - PRECISELY! And then, read on to verse 6. "DOUBLE!!!" It is vengeance upon vengeance on an earth that spat upon the Savior.

Dear Christian, if you are not raptured .... well ... my imagination cannot comprehend the pain ... I've never been there. All I can say is that Nero is an impotent nothing when compared to the God who can breath out a galaxy from His mouth.

 

Exactly, well stated!

But the fact remains, in the here and now, I have a moral and decent family and loved ones I am deeply concerned for, a path that still leads to Hell. Based on the nearness of our snatching away, they have no idea of what they may be facing in their lifetime, much less eternity.

[Vine Abider]

13 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I have already addressed this before, but here goes, Jesus in John 16:33 told us that all time on this earth is tribulation, how? He said in me ye will have peace, In the WORLD ye will have tribulation. 

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

So, ALL TIME in this evil world is troubles, that is why those who are seen in Revelation 7:9-16 came out of great tribulation, the Church Age has had millions of Martyrs. The 70th week is thus tribulation also. Just because the last 3.5 years is the Greatest of all time troubles therefore does not mean the other 3.5 years are not troubles. The 70th week is Jacobs Troubles (3.5 years) mixed in with their 70th week Judgment (all time is troubles in THIS WORLD, Jesus said so) which was designed to bring Israel to repent.

So, the 70th week, just like the Church Age is TROUBLES, we all know the 3.5 years of Jacob's Troubles is the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES, but Jesus told us all time on this earth are troubles, so the 70th week, just like the other 69 weeks just like the Church Age is troubles, the only difference is the 70th week troubles will have Jacob's Troubles in its midst also. It should be obvious that in a world ruled by Satan there will be continual troubles via murder, mayhem and lies !!

I've heard it said, and I think there's some merit to it, that the first 3.5 years there will be an increase in "natural calamities" and in the second 3.5 years is when "supernatural calamities" break forth.  The middle of this 7 year period is when the dragon is cast to the earth (Rev 12 - via manchild), and really starts reeking havoc (as he knows his time is short).

@AdHoc you likely have heard this too - what are your thoughts?

[Rick-Parker]

20 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Jews do not believe in hell.

This I know. Do you believe in an afterlife/Heaven? Just asking.

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Exactly, well stated!

But the fact remains, in the here and now, I have a moral and decent family and loved ones I am deeply concerned for, a path that still leads to Hell. Based on the nearness of our snatching away, they have no idea of what they may be facing in their lifetime, much less eternity.

Yes.  I wish I had better news, but I would misrepresent the scriptures if I said anything else. Revelation 3:10 is conditional. Luke 21:35-36 is conditional. Philippians 3:9-14 is conditional. A pre-tribulation rapture is a PRIZE. It has to be gained. What percentage of Christian ATTAIN to it I cannot guess, but all indications are that it is small. Four very plain scriptures indicate Christians on earth during the Great Tribulation:
Revelation 7:9-17
Revelation 12:17
Revelation 13:7
Revelation 18:4

And if the bulk of Christendom fall short of escape, what shall become of the rest of men? Let us renew our efforts in prayer.

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I've heard it said, and I think there's some merit to it, that the first 3.5 years there will be an increase in "natural calamities" and in the second 3.5 years is when "supernatural calamities" break forth.  The middle of this 7 year period is when the dragon is cast to the earth (Rev 12 - via manchild), and really starts reeking havoc (as he knows his time is short).

@AdHoc you likely have heard this too - what are your thoughts?

Yes. Matthew 24 gives "birth-pangs" - natural calamities. These will serve the Beast as he barters peace. There will be a dire need among men for peace, especially in that powder-keg Middle East. And the Beast succeeds for men cry "peace" (1st Thess.5:3). But then, the day that he violates the Holy of Holies, literally all hell will break lose. The Lord has warned those around about Jerusalem not to even stop for a jacket. I take it that His Majesty was not fooling around and there will be a large quota who will die in the very first hour - die horribly. Matthew 10:28 is not idle words either.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna

 

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Yes.  I wish I had better news, but I would misrepresent the scriptures if I said anything else. Revelation 3:10 is conditional. Luke 21:35-36 is conditional. Philippians 3:9-14 is conditional. A pre-tribulation rapture is a PRIZE. It has to be gained. What percentage of Christian ATTAIN to it I cannot guess, but all indications are that it is small. Four very plain scriptures indicate Christians on earth during the Great Tribulation:
Revelation 7:9-17
Revelation 12:17
Revelation 13:7
Revelation 18:4

And if the bulk of Christendom fall short of escape, what shall become of the rest of men? Let us renew our efforts in prayer.

Good evening, Mr. AdHoc, here anyway 

My theology differs slightly, which is excellent; we can discuss it.

Revelation 7:9-17: Revelation 7 is the first of six parenthetical chapters. These two groups appear to be two different groups (clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;), they have no crowns or seats. They seem separate from the 24 Elders in that they have no crowns but palm branches, which I judge as symbols of the triumphal victory they overcame as martyrs.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

The following verse answers who these are: the Great Tribulation martyred saints. This scene unfolds in heaven. These Elders are mentioned first in Revelation 4:4, and the biblical significance of the number 24 says to me a Rapture has occurred, the church.

I suspect more people will be saved during the tribulation than all of history combined, and many will be put to death because they will not renounce their faith.

Rather than continue verse by verse. How do we differ in our interpretations thus far?

[AdHoc]

35 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good evening, Mr. AdHoc, here anyway 

My theology differs slightly, which is excellent; we can discuss it.

Revelation 7:9-17: Revelation 7 is the first of six parenthetical chapters. These two groups appear to be two different groups (clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;), they have no crowns or seats. They seem separate from the 24 Elders in that they have no crowns but palm branches, which I judge as symbols of the triumphal victory they overcame as martyrs.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

The following verse answers who these are: the Great Tribulation martyred saints. This scene unfolds in heaven. These Elders are mentioned first in Revelation 4:4, and the biblical significance of the number 24 says to me a Rapture has occurred, the church.

I suspect more people will be saved during the tribulation than all of history combined, and many will be put to death because they will not renounce their faith.

Rather than continue verse by verse. How do we differ in our interpretations thus far?

I am familiar with your understanding. It is held by a majority. Here is mine - a minority opinion. Chapter 7 clearly defines two groups. 1. The Jewish Remnant promised in Romans 9 and 11. They are sealed before the Great Tribulation for their is no rapture for Israel. The seal keeps them during the Great Tribulation (Rev.9:4).

2. The innumerable multitude in verses 9-17 stand before the throne. Since the scene is the same as Chapter 4, it must be heaven. The innumerable multitude are clearly connected to Christ, and to be in heaven they must have been raptured. BUT ...
(i) They have come out of "THE" Great Tribulation (v.14). The KJV manuscripts omitted the article, but all other translations, including the NKJV have it.
(ii) They have had tears, heat and hunger and need the Lamb to serve them comfort - a second sign that they passed through the Great Tribulation
(iii) They needed to wash their garments. Their garments were dirty. They are opposite to the Wedding Guests of Revelation 19:7-8. They are unfit for the Wedding in Matthew 22.
(iv) They are not crowned. But they may serve. The Great Tribulation has ripened them but they receive no reward.

My understanding is that no one will be converted during the Great Tribulation. If the end of the age is a harvest as Matthew 13 says, then the firstfruits are gone (in a pre-tribulation rapture). If this multitude went through the Great Tribulation, they are said to have been overcome by the Beast (13:7). The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 bring down fire on their enemies so the age has changed. If the age has changed then no-one preaches the gospel of grace. The "everlasting gospel" teaches to worship God as Creator - not Savior. And it is not given to angels to preach Christ. Without "HEARING" there can be NO FAITH says scripture (Rom.10:14-15). There is only one way to be rewarded. That is, refuse the Mark of the Beast.

The 144,00 of Chapter 14 are in the same setting - heaven. Compare them to the innumerable multitude. They are like night and day. I judge the 144,000 of Chapter 14 to be the firstruits and the overcomers. Their difference is they were (1) redeemed from among men, and (ii) redeemed FROM THE EARTH.

It's 01:30 here and I have a full day tomorrow (today actually). Good night. We'll discuss further on Sunday this most worthy subject.

 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of THE great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Info @Vine Abider.

[Sower]

22 hours ago, Slibhin said:

I treat people as good as they treat me, because I am human like the rest of you. Being called a liar, synagogue of Satan and so on all the time does not leave me in a particularly gracious mood.

I sincerely hope you do not believe I have ever called you a liar. And your reference to the synagogue of satan I have no idea what that is about.

 

I did mention that satan (remember Job) is the (g)od of this world, and as such he seeks to devour man, and he is the father of lies, and he deceives, and BLINDS the truth of the one true God, and he is good at what he does, because most deny his existence, and live in ignorance, believing his lie that they can not understand, hopefully excusing themselves and their ignorance, with no responsibility.

22 hours ago, Slibhin said:

I follow the Torah, and if that makes me "stiff necked" in your estimation then guilty as charged. They are the 613 mitzvot, not the 613 suggestions.

Just quoting your God, Slibhin, so you will have to take it up with him;   "The LORD said to Moses, 'I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people!' " (Exodus 32:9). "Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, lest I consume you on the way, for you are a stiff-necked people"

22 hours ago, Slibhin said:

You are the one who said G-d blinded people, not I. If he has indeed done so then we are not responsible for our unbelief.

Jews do not believe in the devil. Satan appears mainly in Job and is only able to act with Hashem's express permission. He is not able to go against him because angels don't have such an ability.

If you read my post again you can see for yourself I did not say GOD blinded you.
I said, see below, (the god of this world, satan) the one you do not believe in.

22 hours ago, Slibhin said:

PS; the god of this world, the great deceiver, is satan.  Our enemy (remember Job)
He blinds the minds of unbelievers,

 

22 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Jews do not believe in a new testament because G-d has said clearly the Torah is binding an eternal. We will never accept any position where G-d has reversed himself or changed his mind because he himself said he never does that.

I can not address this issue as I am not knowledgeable of Jewish laws and traditions. I agree that God is the same yesterday today and forever. I do not believe he reversed himself, or changed his mind.  But like in the old testament he would use different people and methods to accomplish his will at different times and change his people's situations at his will. God's ways are not mans ways, and who can know it.

I believe the Jewish nation is too entrenched in the keeping of the law for so long they will not consider salvation by grace. And then there is the problem with the Messiah yet to come vs Jesus the Messiah that they crucified. Again, just because they do not believe in Jesus doesn't make him go away. There is too much evidence in our history documented to even try to make it go away.

I realize you do not read/believe the NT book of Revelation, but the coming of the future messiah the Jews are waiting for are addressed. And it is scary for those living at that time. Based upon your age, I honestly believe you are young enough to be around, as the end times, prophesy etc is not that far off.

Exciting times for those who have the blood of the lamb already covering them. Those days are approaching quickly, as more and more revealed end times occur every year.

 

Your situation reminds me so much of the same situation I was in 45 + yrs ago. Being literally born into the catholic hierarchy as an infant, baptized while still on the pap, all my relatives and so many friends also in the same sinking boat, raised with those old traditions of the papal decrees, mass celebrations in Latin that no one understood, years as an altar boy reciting the responses in Latin, forbidden to ever visit another denomination without church consent/approval even for a funeral or wedding.. So controlled by the 'mother church', and this after the RCC crusades where thousands of muslims and christians were killed, and christians were forbidden to own a bible (lest the truth of the word of God should be discovered)

Sounds to me like the Jewish leaders don't have much faith in their flock to believe in their understanding of scripture without chains to keep them from straying.

Bottom line, you chose Slibhin what you believe, and it sounds to me you are comfortable with trusting your stay out of jail free card, a Jew who believes it is God who will not allow you to understand. But there is a huge problem with that logic. You can not understand something you are uninterested in, something you will not, and say you can not, because it is forbidden by man, his traditions and his man made law, that you fear.        

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge:

but fools despise wisdom and instruction"  Proverbs 1:7

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,

and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding"   Proverbs 9:10

I doubt when the time comes your Rabbi won't be pleading your case before God, and you will be standing alone before God at judgement seat.

Unless you decide to plead your case now, and cry out to your God, and beg for understanding, truth, found in his scriptures, to everybody and anybody.

As a christian I do have one that will plead my case, and according to GOD'S word, he is, before God the Father, and I have the blood of the spotless lamb covering me, you remember that putting the blood on the door posts that the death passed over, and the verdict is not guilty, because the penalty has all been paid in blood.

"The blood shall be a sign for you, on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you, when I strike the land of Egypt"

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1 John 2:1-2

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Judgement day is not a good time to learn the truth.
 

 

 

               

[Logostician]

My feelings about the Rapture are summarized by the last two verses of the Bible.

Rev 22:20-21

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.  The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I am familiar with your understanding. It is held by a majority. Here is mine - a minority opinion. Chapter 7 clearly defines two groups. 1. The Jewish Remnant promised in Romans 9 and 11. They are sealed before the Great Tribulation for their is no rapture for Israel. The seal keeps them during the Great Tribulation (Rev.9:4).

2. The innumerable multitude in verses 9-17 stand before the throne. Since the scene is the same as Chapter 4, it must be heaven. The innumerable multitude are clearly connected to Christ, and to be in heaven they must have been raptured. BUT ...
(i) They have come out of "THE" Great Tribulation (v.14). The KJV manuscripts omitted the article, but all other translations, including the NKJV have it.
(ii) They have had tears, heat and hunger and need the Lamb to serve them comfort - a second sign that they passed through the Great Tribulation
(iii) They needed to wash their garments. Their garments were dirty. They are opposite to the Wedding Guests of Revelation 19:7-8. They are unfit for the Wedding in Matthew 22.
(iv) They are not crowned. But they may serve. The Great Tribulation has ripened them but they receive no reward.

My understanding is that no one will be converted during the Great Tribulation. If the end of the age is a harvest as Matthew 13 says, then the firstfruits are gone (in a pre-tribulation rapture). If this multitude went through the Great Tribulation, they are said to have been overcome by the Beast (13:7). The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 bring down fire on their enemies so the age has changed. If the age has changed then no-one preaches the gospel of grace. The "everlasting gospel" teaches to worship God as Creator - not Savior. And it is not given to angels to preach Christ. Without "HEARING" there can be NO FAITH says scripture (Rom.10:14-15). There is only one way to be rewarded. That is, refuse the Mark of the Beast.

The 144,00 of Chapter 14 are in the same setting - heaven. Compare them to the innumerable multitude. They are like night and day. I judge the 144,000 of Chapter 14 to be the firstruits and the overcomers. Their difference is they were (1) redeemed from among men, and (ii) redeemed FROM THE EARTH.

It's 01:30 here and I have a full day tomorrow (today actually). Good night. We'll discuss further on Sunday this most worthy subject.

 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of THE great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Info @Vine Abider.

The aforementioned is very interesting to discuss openly, trying to understand what the scriptures tell us without preconceived bias. It is important to study because so much space and detail is devoted, and it is the only book in the Bible where a special blessing or curse is associated with it.

2 Peter 1:20 (KJV) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

I surmise that the books of Daniel, Revelation, and other unfulfilled prophetic scripture are significant, especially to those it will apply, witness, and experience as the Day approaches.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The majority believe Daniel above talks about end-time technology, artificial intelligence, car traffic jams, space travel, hypercomputers, etc., never seen or imagined. Could it have an alternate or dual meaning? As these things worsen, indicating the end time, as a woman in travail, many will be flipping the pages of prophetic scripture trying to figure out what is happening now, and they will gain knowledge and put 2+2 together.

As you mention, I suppose I hold the majority view on this subject, but a majority view does not necessitate that view is correct, from so many examples to choose from.

You have brought up several things (now and in the past) I have not noticed or considered and gave thought-provoking opinions to be contemplated. I want to study this latest round a bit more and will get back to you shortly.