choir loft Posted December 4, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 70 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,223 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 336 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted December 4, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, Anne2 said: No, we do not. You acknowledge this then say....... If they are following Pharisaical traditionalism, and not law, are they repenting that they didn't keep tradition? And repentance is just a return to keeping a tradition and not law? Makes no sense. YES, churches almost universally reject God's LAW. Want proof? Why do church types worship on Sunday IN DIRECT VIOLATION OF THE 4TH COMMANDMENT to worship on Saturday? You cannot argue it any other way other than lawlessness. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” (Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50) Did you read the above? It is the church that has SUBVERTED God's LAW into its own perverse form of pagan tradition. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. (Daniel 7:25) Prophecies of the End Times tell us it would be a time of lawlessness. Certainly there is much violence in the earth, but the church is foremost in leading people away from God's LAW. No church I am aware of respects or teaches the LAW. Indeed they teach a false doctrine that Christ destroyed the LAW, which He did not. (Matt 5:17) You aren't reading my words for the purpose of understanding, but are reading them for the purpose of argument. Read me again. Jews observe PERSONAL repentance at least once a year during the High Holy Days. Preaching and physical actions underline the reason for the season. Christians DO NOT observe any particular day or season for repentance - apart from which no one can be saved. Indeed some churches, such as the Methodist church, deny the need for repentance at all. (told to me by a licensed Methodist minister) NONE preach repentance. When was the last time you heard a series of sermons on the subject? Every single one of them would have to be based upon Mosaic LAW, which our churches deny being bound to..... It makes perfect sense - proved by declining attendance - proved by those who see the hypocrisy of our churches today and want no part of it. What do these church types DO about this perceived hypocrisy? NOTHING. They simply continue to deny it exists. Meanwhile more and more members of their congregations deny the church itself has any meaning for them. Do we then cancel the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law. (Romans 4:31 HCSB) that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Edited December 4, 2023 by choir loft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted December 5, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,057 Content Per Day: 3.30 Reputation: 1,463 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted December 5, 2023 9 hours ago, choir loft said: YES, churches almost universally reject God's LAW. Want proof? Why do church types worship on Sunday IN DIRECT VIOLATION OF THE 4TH COMMANDMENT to worship on Saturday? You cannot argue it any other way other than lawlessness. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” (Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50) Did you read the above? It is the church that has SUBVERTED God's LAW into its own perverse form of pagan tradition. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. (Daniel 7:25) Prophecies of the End Times tell us it would be a time of lawlessness. Certainly there is much violence in the earth, but the church is foremost in leading people away from God's LAW. No church I am aware of respects or teaches the LAW. Indeed they teach a false doctrine that Christ destroyed the LAW, which He did not. (Matt 5:17) You aren't reading my words for the purpose of understanding, but are reading them for the purpose of argument. Read me again. Jews observe PERSONAL repentance at least once a year during the High Holy Days. Preaching and physical actions underline the reason for the season. Christians DO NOT observe any particular day or season for repentance - apart from which no one can be saved. Indeed some churches, such as the Methodist church, deny the need for repentance at all. (told to me by a licensed Methodist minister) NONE preach repentance. When was the last time you heard a series of sermons on the subject? Every single one of them would have to be based upon Mosaic LAW, which our churches deny being bound to..... It makes perfect sense - proved by declining attendance - proved by those who see the hypocrisy of our churches today and want no part of it. What do these church types DO about this perceived hypocrisy? NOTHING. They simply continue to deny it exists. Meanwhile more and more members of their congregations deny the church itself has any meaning for them. Do we then cancel the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law. (Romans 4:31 HCSB) that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Have you got a few scriptures (three should be enough) that the New Man, which God created, and for which He nailed the Law to the cross (Eph.2:15, Col.2:14), was given to them again? Did not Jesus say why the Law will not pass in Matthew 5:17? Because He would fulfill it (v.17) and Israel did not fulfill it (v.18)? When (in which scripture) is the Law given to South Americans? The Law is part of a Covenant. When did God make this Covenant with Eskimos? If a Christian slays an offering for his sins, has he not trampled underfoot the blood of Jesus? For what reason do you slay offerings then? Did you go down to Jerusalem every year of your adult life three times - as the Law commands. And did you take your tithes with to Jerusalem (Deuteronomy 12, 14 and 16). Which temple did your High Priest enter with blood on Yom Kippur this year? If he did not he is a Law breaker and guilty of all. Oh, and who is your High Priest? My information is that the records for the lineage of High Priest was lost in 70 AD. How do you establish Zadok's line? And why does Israel not abide by the Covenant with David's line as king. What chapter and verses establishes a Knesset? Just thinking .... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted December 5, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 41 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,621 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,460 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted December 5, 2023 10 hours ago, choir loft said: YES, churches almost universally reject God's LAW. Want proof? Why do church types worship on Sunday IN DIRECT VIOLATION OF THE 4TH COMMANDMENT to worship on Saturday? You cannot argue it any other way other than lawlessness. Shalom, choir loft. The reason for celebrating the First Day of the week is simple: They were COMMEMORATING the Resurrection of our Lord Yeeshuwa`. But, at the beginning, since all of the original called-out assembly were Jews and children of Israel from other tribes, they did NOT forget to worship G-D on Shabbat, as well. They RESTED on Shabbat; they GATHERED TOGETHER on the First Day! Some had to travel a long distance to gather, and such travel would have been too much for a Shabbat's rest! 10 hours ago, choir loft said: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” (Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50) Did you read the above? It is the church that has SUBVERTED God's LAW into its own perverse form of pagan tradition. There's no doubt that it was in as early as the second century A.D. that the Roman Catholic Church abandoned the RESTING of the Shabbat in lieu of the gathering upon the First Day. In this, you are correct. 10 hours ago, choir loft said: He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. (Daniel 7:25) Prophecies of the End Times tell us it would be a time of lawlessness. Certainly there is much violence in the earth, but the church is foremost in leading people away from God's LAW. No church I am aware of respects or teaches the LAW. Indeed they teach a false doctrine that Christ destroyed the LAW, which He did not. (Matt 5:17) Again, you are correct; Yeeshuwa` did NOT abandon the Law, destroy the Law, or change the Law; HOWEVER, He also taught that all of the Law was summed up in the two Laws: Deuteronomy 6:4-9 (KJV) 4 "Hear, O Israel (Shma`, Yisraa'eel): The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. 9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates." and ... Leviticus 19:9-18 (KJV) 9 "And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest. 10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God! 11 "Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. 12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD! 13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning. 14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD! 15 "Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. 16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD! 17 "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD!" These two Commandments, upon which all the others hang - all 611 of the rest - were given as the Law of the Messiah. (1 Cor. 9:21; Gal. 6:2) If one fulfills these two Commandments, he or she has practically fulfilled all the rest of the commandments to which he or she could yet adhere with the lack of the Temple. 10 hours ago, choir loft said: You aren't reading my words for the purpose of understanding, but are reading them for the purpose of argument. Read me again. Jews observe PERSONAL repentance at least once a year during the High Holy Days. Preaching and physical actions underline the reason for the season. Christians DO NOT observe any particular day or season for repentance - apart from which no one can be saved. Indeed some churches, such as the Methodist church, deny the need for repentance at all. (told to me by a licensed Methodist minister) Here, one must be careful: First, it's true that the Jews, even the Messianic Jews, will observe the Day of Atonement once a year, fasting through the Days of Awe while confessing their sins to G-D. HOWEVER, the Messiah IS haKeves Elohiym! the Yearling Lamb of G-D! As such, He was sacrificed upon the execution stake and His blood atoned for the sins of many in the whole world, past, present, and future! And, He was sacrificed ONCE FOR ALL! When one is "JUSTIFIED BY GOD" (aka "born again"), that Great Exchange happens for that individual! It doesn't have to be at the Day of Atonement; it can be at ANYTIME that one comes to realize the total depravity of one's sins, and comes to G-D for HIS WORK OF RECONCILIATION! Repentance is often misunderstood! It's simply TURNING AROUND 180 DEGREES, regarding one's sins! When one TURNS AWAY from his or her sins and TURNS TO G-D for HIS Righteousness, THAT is "repentance!" NO AMOUNT of good deeds will suffice! ALL of a person's standing with God is found in G-D DECLARING HIM OR HER "HIS SON'S RIGHTEOUSNESS!" 10 hours ago, choir loft said: NONE preach repentance. When was the last time you heard a series of sermons on the subject? Every single one of them would have to be based upon Mosaic LAW, which our churches deny being bound to..... Gentiles ARE "a law unto themselves." Even those who have been exposed to the Law of G-D given at Mount Sinai and written down by the hand of Mosheh ("Moses"), CANNOT keep it! It is MORALLY and PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for a sinner to keep the Law PERFECTLY, as G-D requires! THINK ABOUT IT! How can one go back and "fix" the sins he or she has already committed against G-D?! G-D REQUIRES PERFECTION in KEEPING HIS LAW (SINGULAR)! THIS is why we needed the Messiah to be our Substitution! He DID keep the ENTIRE Law, and did not have to die, because He was the ONLY ONE who ever KEPT THE LAW PERFECTLY! 10 hours ago, choir loft said: It makes perfect sense - proved by declining attendance - proved by those who see the hypocrisy of our churches today and want no part of it. What do these church types DO about this perceived hypocrisy? NOTHING. They simply continue to deny it exists. Meanwhile more and more members of their congregations deny the church itself has any meaning for them. Do we then cancel the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law. (Romans 4:31 HCSB) that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Your view is too simplistic: Righteous living does not come from people changing their ways; it comes from the HOLY SPIRIT OF G-D living within each person who has been justified by G-D, doing G-D'S righteousness THROUGH each person! This is the ONE thing that modern churches are starting to miss in their teaching that affects our society! 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