The “anti-Christ”

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

John 1, Jesus is THE WORD, the word was with Jesus the WORD is Jesus. 

Jesus is ETERNAL, thus Daniel and Revelation are also Eternal. 

If you want t understand God STUDY THE ENTIRE WORD, as God COMMANDS us to to do. Its just an excuse brother. I do not buy it, no one studies one book for that many years. For some reason you just do not want to speak about Revelation. So be it, but then do not assume everyone else wont. 

I will speak about Revelation WHEN AND AFTER I read and study it. God willing, I will begin Revelation very soon and I am able to use Daniel as a reference, source and its interpretations to help me unpack it. Until then, I have no idea what is within those very cryptic verses. But I will tell you what I found in studying Daniel that will apply to Revelation: there will generally be two major camps of those scholars, academics and theologians that have interpreted Revelation in different ways. Each of the two camps are convinced they have the correct interpretation and believe they can support their views. Meaning, just as with Daniel, at least one of the two groups must be wrong (not on every issue but on most of the important issues within the many prophecies). This will be repeated in Revelation, but I need to go through their arguments and use my interpretations found in Daniel to get through this study.

Now, since you claim to know both Daniel and Revelation so well, you would have the advantage over me. You could provide your interpretations on Daniel and also show how they are relevant in Revelation.

Would you agree to go through Daniel here in this topic? We can begin with chapter 2 and the 4 kingdoms and walk through each verse. We can skip chapters 3,4,5, and 6 and move right into the sister chapter of chapter 2 - chapter 7. 
 

This should be an enjoyable and informative discussion on Daniel. It won’t take very long before it becomes clear where, when and why our interpretations separate (and they will quickly separate). 
 

Would you like to proceed?

 

 

 

[douggg]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

You could provide your interpretations on Daniel and also show how they are relevant in Revelation.

Charlie, when your worked on you study for Daniel - what you were actually studying were "events".      Try to keep that in in mind when you begin your study of Revelation.

Charlie when you do your study on Revelation using Daniel as reference text, take note of the timeframes that common to both Daniel and Revelation.

Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7 - time/times/half time

Revelation 12:17 - time/times/half time

----------------------------------------------

In Revelation there are additional time frames

Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6 - 1260 days

Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2 - 42 months

Revelation  11:11   - 3 1/2 days

-----------------------------------------------

In Daniel there are additional time frames

Daniel 12:11 - 1290 days

Daniel 12:12 - 1335 days

Daniel 8:14 - 2300 days

Daniel 9:27 - 7 years

------------------------------------------------

Ezekiel 39:9 - 7 years

Ezekiel 39:12 - seven months

------------------------------------------------

Everything has to fit within that 7 years following Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39.    Making a timeline chart is about the only way to keep all those timeframes and events associated with them straight and presentable.

For your own study, just use a pencil and a piece of paper - and begin to work it out.

I have over 50 years at it.  

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by douggg

[JoeCanada]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

but this verse does speak to all the nations that existed at the time of Rome. 

Hey.... can you elaborate on this please

 

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

They were absolutely brutal. Showed no mercy, destroyed anyone in their path.

Brutal... yes. And who wasn't? 

The empires before Rome.... the Parthians, the Greeks, the Medes and Persians, the Babylonians. All very brutal. The Roman armies were no more brutal than those before them.

And try as they might, they couldn't destroy 'all' that were in their paths. That's why the they couldn't take Babylon or the Medes/Persians.

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Rome surely adopted much from Greece but they were the kingdom of “iron.” They crushed their opponents, and of course, they were the powerful kingdom that followed Greece. 

Well, if we look at history, it was the Parthians that followed the Greek empire. Rome didn't come along until much later.

So.... why is Rome called the kingdom of 'iron'???

Iron was around way before the Roman armies used it. In 2500 BCE, iron is used on a large scale by the Hittites, which is now Turkey and Syria. And in 1000 BCE is when the Iron Age really began. Iron was widely used for making tools and weapons in many parts of the world. Even the Greeks used it for their weapons.

So again... why is Rome called the kingdom of iron? Like, who called it that?????

We'll dig thru this a bit at a time if that's ok.

[JoeCanada]

7 minutes ago, douggg said:

 

Hi Dougg,

Why?????... do you place the Gog/Magog war 7 years prior to the return of Jesus???

I'm assuming that you are placing it at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel.

Why?

Maybe we can discuss this in a thread about Gog/Magog...... but I would really like to discuss this with you.

[Last Daze]

5 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

So.... why is Rome called the kingdom of 'iron'???

Hey Joe.

If you look at the order of the metals of the statue in Daniel 2, they go from being the most noble (gold) to the least noble (iron), and I'm referring to the metallurgical property of nobility, not some abstract goodness.  Silver is inferior to gold because it is less noble as metals go.  Galvanic corrosion occurs in less noble metals.  Google the nobility of metals for a better explanation.

My thought is that the forms of government used by the different kingdoms correlate to the nobility of their metals and consequently in their ability to become corrupted.  For better or worse, a dictatorship is more difficult to corrupt than a representative government. 

[douggg]

29 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Why?????... do you place the Gog/Magog war 7 years prior to the return of Jesus???

By working back through the text. 

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus speaking in the text, having returned to this earth.    Jesus is speaking in retrospect to the 2000 years of Jewish unbelief in Him as both the messiah and being the Lord their God.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Working back in the text, the Armageddon event is in Ezekiel 39:17-20, equating to Revelation 19:17-18.

Working back in the text, we find in Ezekiel 39:1-16 events associated with the Gog/Magog event.     Which there are 7 years following Gog/Magog to Armageddon and Jesus's return.

----------------------------------

Joe, when working on timelines, sometimes we have to work from the end of the event, back to determine when the event takes place on the timeline.

For example, the 1335 days of Daniel 12:12.     To know where to place that event of the abomination of desolation (image of the beast-king) setup on a timeline - we subtract 1335 from 2520 (the end of the 7 years) - and come up with day 1185 on the timeline.

That is critical in understanding how the person as the beast-king kills the two witnesses and still be within the 1260 days first half of the 7 years.

The person thus becomes the beast-king before day 1185.    So the two witnesses battle the beast-king, as the Jews flee to the mountains, as Jesus said for them to do in Matthew 24:15-21... for 75 days (1185 to 1260).

Edited December 1, 2023 by douggg

[Charlie744]

22 minutes ago, douggg said:

Charlie, when your worked on you study for Daniel - what you were actually studying were "events".      Try to keep that in in mind when you begin your study of Revelation.

Charlie when you do your study on Revelation using Daniel as reference text, take note of the timeframes that common to both Daniel and Revelation.

Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7 - time/times/half time

Revelation 12:17 - time/times/half time

----------------------------------------------

In Revelation there are additional time frames

Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6 - 1260 days

Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2 - 42 months

Revelation  11:11   - 3 1/2 days

-----------------------------------------------

In Daniel there are additional time frames

Daniel 12:11 - 1290 days

Daniel 12:12 - 1335 days

Daniel 8:14 - 2300 days

Daniel 9:27 - 7 years

------------------------------------------------

Ezekiel 39:9 - 7 years

Ezekiel 39:12 - seven months

------------------------------------------------

Everything has to fit within that 7 years following Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39.    Making a timeline chart is about the only way to keep all those timeframes and events associated with them straight and presentable.

For your own study, just use a pencil and a piece of paper - and begin to work it out.

I have over 50 years at it.  

 

Thanks Dougg, and I agree with you. I have not studied the Ezekiel verses since they have no part in the Daniel intepretations, but I certainly will consider them for the Revelation study.

Now, not to cause another long and difficult discussion that takes us away from the "anti-Christ" topic, but I can assue you that the 5 time elements mentioned in Daniel are not what they are per today's accepted interpretations:

1) 7 times in chapter 4 --- equals days,

2) time, times and 1/2 times in 7:25 and again mentioned in chapter 12 do not mean 3.5 years or 1260 years, etc. They have a very different meaning that speaks to the context of the verses it points to,

3) 2300 evenings and mornings in chapter 8 --- speak to the time of the Messiah,

4) 1290 days - speaks to the time of the Messiah - His first coming,

5) 1335 days - speaks to the time of the Messiah - His secon coming.

 

Ezekiel - have not studied it but I would bet it is end time.

I apologize for revealing these new interpretations that are completly different than "today's accepted interpretations," but most of them speak to the end time events since they find similar time elements in Revelation and assume they mean the same thing - they don't, which is why I continue to mention that if you want to study Daniel, study Daniel.

Also, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the truly new interpretations that I offered in my recent commentary on the book of Daniel (Nov. 9), will not be accepted by all or many or any, etc., but they really tie into the coming Messiah and explained fairly well ---- they are not end time events.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[douggg]

3 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

2) time, times and 1/2 times in 7:25 and again mentioned in chapter 12 do not mean 3.5 years or 1260 years, etc. They have a very different meaning that speaks to the context of the verses it points to,

Charlie, I agree that the time/times/half time is not exactly 1260 days.    Also the term 3 1/2 years, 3.5 years, is not in the bible stated as such.

The 1260 days, the 42 months, the time/times/half time are not exact equivalents to each other.

We can, however, apply them to being in either the first half or second half of the seven years.

 

[Charlie744]

29 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hey.... can you elaborate on this please

Oh, I think I was referring back to your comment where you indicated (if I read it correctly) that Rome did not conquer Babylon, Medes-Persia or Greece ... Rome did not conquer them, each of the first 3 kingdoms were conquered by the next succeeding kingdom - Rome was and is the last kingdom in the 4 metal man image.

 

29 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Brutal... yes. And who wasn't? 

The empires before Rome.... the Parthians, the Greeks, the Medes and Persians, the Babylonians. All very brutal. The Roman armies were no more brutal than those before them.

And try as they might, they couldn't destroy 'all' that were in their paths. That's why the they couldn't take Babylon or the Medes/Persians.

Well, if we look at history, it was the Parthians that followed the Greek empire. Rome didn't come along until much later.

So.... why is Rome called the kingdom of 'iron'???

Iron was around way before the Roman armies used it. In 2500 BCE, iron is used on a large scale by the Hittites, which is now Turkey and Syria. And in 1000 BCE is when the Iron Age really began. Iron was widely used for making tools and weapons in many parts of the world. Even the Greeks used it for their weapons.

So again... why is Rome called the kingdom of iron? Like, who called it that?????

We'll dig thru this a bit at a time if that's ok.

Rome did distinguish itself as a very brutal and monstrous kingdom. They trampled on every nation they came in contact with - as far as England to all parts of the Mediterraniean (all coasts), and up into the German region and beyond. There was no kingdom that conquered and destroyed like pagan Rome.

And I do belive I mentioned that the most important prophecies in the book of Daniel occurred in the 4th kingdom - the coming of the Messiah all the way to the coming of the little horn (papacy) and papal Rome... These events took place within pagan Rome, if not, what kingdom did they occur in?

Can you share who do you believe is the 4th kingdom if not Rome?  Thanks.

 

 

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I will speak about Revelation WHEN AND AFTER I read and study it. God willing, I will begin Revelation very soon and I am able to use Daniel as a reference, source and its interpretations to help me unpack it. Until then, I have no idea what is within those very cryptic verses. But I will tell you what I found in studying Daniel that will apply to Revelation: there will generally be two major camps of those scholars, academics and theologians that have interpreted Revelation in different ways. Each of the two camps are convinced they have the correct interpretation and believe they can support their views. Meaning, just as with Daniel, at least one of the two groups must be wrong (not on every issue but on most of the important issues within the many prophecies). This will be repeated in Revelation, but I need to go through their arguments and use my interpretations found in Daniel to get through this study.

Now, since you claim to know both Daniel and Revelation so well, you would have the advantage over me. You could provide your interpretations on Daniel and also show how they are relevant in Revelation.

Would you agree to go through Daniel here in this topic? We can begin with chapter 2 and the 4 kingdoms and walk through each verse. We can skip chapters 3,4,5, and 6 and move right into the sister chapter of chapter 2 - chapter 7. 
 

This should be an enjoyable and informative discussion on Daniel. It won’t take very long before it becomes clear where, when and why our interpretations separate (and they will quickly separate). 
 

Would you like to proceed?

 

 

 

I realize this response is not directed at me, but I want to ask you a question. As you will see, I am not being smart or making any insults to anyone.

Let us use this verse as our baseline, as you have studied:

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

In addition to the obvious we see with technology, I think this verse has a more profound and different meaning. As the world waxes worse and everything is going to Hell in a handbasket, people are getting gripped with fear. Many will start to flip through prophetic scripture, trying to figure out what is happening, and their prophetic and biblical knowledge will increase. Why would the Lord inform us that artificial intelligence, smartphones, traffic jams, computers, airlines, and space travel are coming? Only those at the appointed time can discern the end times.

The question: What gives you the advantage of interpreting unfulfilled prophetic scripture, compared to scholars and theologians such as C.I. Schofield, G.H. Pember, and Clarence Larkin, in that era and before that?

We can divide the two theological differing camps into pre-1970 and those of modern scholarship of today. Those pre-1970 theologians could not have imagined or envisioned how or why all these alignments could come about in the books of Daniel and Revelation.

In the 1970s, Israel was friends with Iran and took vacations to Turkey, with no hostilities with Russia. I came close to taking a job working for Bell-Textron in Iran in 1978. We know what happened in 1979. They could not have imagined Russia and Iran’s occupation of Syria or Iran’s nuclear threat to Israel and the world.

Looking at Ezekiel 38-39, look at where we are today. You, I, and the world are witnessing the reasons why Damascus, Syria, will become a ruinous heap overnight, Elam (S.W. Iran-Bushehr Facilities) will be destroyed, and why. Only this generation has the prophetic foresight to see everything aligning (prophetic convergence); the scholars of yesteryear could not.

The generation closest to the fulfillment of prophetic scripture should understand it the best. Prophecy is best discerned after fulfillment, i.e., Israel being reborn as a nation in one day, May 14, 1948. Could you have written and interpreted what you recently wrote the same way fifty years ago or even ten?

True, even modern scholarship of today has different camps of interpretation and disagree on various ways, timing, and who. But most seem to agree that no matter whose theology turns out to be correct, the time of fulfillment is close at hand.