The “anti-Christ”

[Charlie744]

36 minutes ago, douggg said:

Charlie, 50 years of study, as God revealed to me the understanding.

The text itself says either days, months, years.

If you have not worked on a timeline - then how can you say the 5 time elements are independent, and the events thereof operate in a vacuum ?    Plus, you have yet to study Revelation.

1260 days, 42 months, a time/times/half time, 3 1/2 days, 2300 days, 1290 days, 1335 days, 7 years.     That's 8, not 5, btw.

 

 

 

I am only speaking to the book of Daniel not Revelation... come on man!

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Dougg,

Why?????... do you place the Gog/Magog war 7 years prior to the return of Jesus???

I'm assuming that you are placing it at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel.

Why?

Maybe we can discuss this in a thread about Gog/Magog...... but I would really like to discuss this with you.

May I ask a couple of questions and comment on the topic and timing of the Gog-Magog invasion of Ezekiel 38-39, not the totally different one in Revelation with two different objectives?

Not discussing the additional 30 and 45-day extensions of the seven-year Tribulation, of 360-day Jewish years. So that some flesh and a remnant would be saved, the Lord shortened those days.

Many believe as I do, the 70^th week of Daniel (7-year tribulation) and time of Jacob’s trouble, the last 1,260 days of the Great Tribulation, are divided by the abomination that makes desolate, all of Israel flees for their lives at the AOD.

Do we believe the peaceful millennial reign of Jesus shortly after the Tribulation will have any war associated with it? Right now, we see all the mutual defense and cooperation alignments of the five belligerent nations forming. Israel's prosperity with their Goliath gas and oil fields and natural resources. Israel is supplying heating fuel to Greece and Europe, relieving Russian influence in Europe and threats of Russia shutting off Europe's heating dependence. Turkey is not a happy camper with it either. A possible hook in the jaw. I believe the Gog-Magog invasion is on the horizon.

With that backdrop, here are some thoughts:

Israel will continually burn those Gog-Magog weapons of war as fuel for seven years. Halfway through the Tribulation, all of Israel will flee for their lives, they will be dead and a 1/3^rd remnant will be protected by God. Who will care, or be around after the abomination that makes desolate to burn those weapons for fuel?

If these assumptions are correct, the Gog-Magog invasion must occur at the very minimum, of 3.5 years before the official signing of the seven-year covenant with antichrist.

I am certainly open to different views.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

First, I tried to click and open the link a few times - unsuccessful. But let's skip someone's elses work if they refer to another's interpretation. Please tell me what you believe these two time elements speak to and why... 

 

Charlie, it showed up as a link and not a timeline chart ?

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Okay, now prove it. Show me or tell me how, why and what they speak of?

In Matthew 24:15-21, the great tribulation begins with the abomination of desolation setup on the temple mount.

Jesus returns in Matthew 24:30b to end the great tribulation.   Right after the sign of of the Son of Man appears in heaven (which is the Revelation 6, sixth seal event that you have not studied yet).    

In Matthew 24:29, it says after the tribulation of those days, which in the next verse the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven.

So, Matthew 24:15-30 is the basis for understanding the 1290 days and the 1335 days.

-------------------------------------------------

The great tribulation will be 1335 days long (Daniel 12:12), beginning with the abomination of desolation being setup in Daniel 12:11.

1290 days from when the abomination of desolation is setup will be the sign of the son of Man in heaven - Jesus sword in hand (from Revelation 14, which you also have not studied yet).

When the sign of the Son of Man in heaven appears to the inhabitants of the earth, the wicked are terrified - Revelation 6, the sixth seal event.

In reaction, the kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus.   Revelation 16:13-16.

Jesus returns to earth in Revelation 19 and destroys those armies.   And the beast-king (who started out as the little horn) and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire, Revelation 19:19-20.

Daniel 8:25 is the demise of the little horn person when he stands up (attempts to make war - leading the Armageddon group) on the Prince of princes - Jesus.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

In Matthew 24:15-21, the great tribulation begins with the abomination of desolation setup on the temple mount.

Jesus returns in Matthew 24:30b to end the great tribulation.   Right after the sign of of the Son of Man appears in heaven (which is the Revelation 6, sixth seal event that you have not studied yet).    

In Matthew 24:29, it says after the tribulation of those days, which in the next verse the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven.

So, Matthew 24:15-30 is the basis for understanding the 1290 days and the 1335 days.

-------------------------------------------------

The great tribulation will be 1335 days long (Daniel 12:12), beginning with the abomination of desolation being setup in Daniel 12:11.

1290 days from when the abomination of desolation is setup will be the sign of the son of Man in heaven - Jesus sword in hand (from Revelation 14, which you also have not studied yet).

When the sign of the Son of Man in heaven appears to the inhabitants of the earth, the wicked are terrified - Revelation 6, the sixth seal event.

In reaction, the kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus.   Revelation 16:13-16.

Jesus returns to earth in Revelation 19 and destroys those armies.   And the beast-king (who started out as the little horn) and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire, Revelation 19:19-20.

Daniel 8:25 is the demise of the little horn person when he stands up (attempts to make war - leading the Armageddon group) on the Prince of princes - Jesus.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

 

 

Thanks Dougg... it took me a little time to try and piece all of this together but I think I see how you see these days.... maybe.... 

First, I don't know why you feel the need to bring in any verses in Revelation into this issue. There maybe references (same of different) in Revelation that speak to these days but these two time elements do not need / require one to wait until Revelation would be written to be interpreted. Daniel interprets Daniel and if it needs help with some of the symbols, then one can certainly go back into the Tanakh (for example, go to Jeremiah 31:31-34) to identify the "New Covenant" the Messiah wil confirm in His first coming.

However, one can not go forward to Revelation to interpret Daniel. This does NOT mean the two books will not agree, but Daniel speaks about Daniel first and foremost and then the Daniel interpretations can be used to unpack Revelation. Just as God will use very different symbols to identify the 4 kingdoms between chapters 2 ,7 and 8, God will use very different symbols in Revelation that will / most likely / should match with the interpretations in Daniel.  But to continue with this example, it woul be utterly impossible to try and determine the 4 kingoms in chapter 7 or the 3 kingdoms in chapter 8 AND THEIR RELATED PROPHECIES, if there were NO chapter 2 metal man image.

That is the analogy I am attempting to put across between Daniel and Revelation. It is necessary to interpret Daniel chapter 2 before chapter 7 or 8. One feeds into the others.

So that is my thoughts on why Daniel must be interpreted without any looking forward to Revelation. Daniel will interpret Daniel.

To start with the verses you offered (in Daniel), is 8:25.  This verse belongs with the other two verses 8:23 and 24. These 3 verses speak to the same individual. This "he" will do some nasty things, speak nasty things even against the "Prince of princes."

So, who is this "he"?  Why do you mention him in the two time elements of 1290 and 1335 days? 

Who or what is the abomination that causes desolation you mentioned? Clearly, you believe this is an end time event....

I do agree that some verses in Matthew 24 speak to the "abomination that causes desolation," but not necessarily how you think it does (and by the way, when I say you, I mean everyone but me). 

Please leave out ANY reference you may want to bring in from Revelation. They do NOT assist us in dealing with the identifcation of these two time elements or the 8:25 verse questions mentioned above.

Thanks, Charlie

 

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

John 1, Jesus is THE WORD, the word was with Jesus the WORD is Jesus. 

Jesus is ETERNAL, thus Daniel and Revelation are also Eternal. 

If you want t understand God STUDY THE ENTIRE WORD, as God COMMANDS us to to do. Its just an excuse brother. I do not buy it, no one studies one book for that many years. For some reason you just do not want to speak about Revelation. So be it, but then do not assume everyone else wont. 

I will speak about Revelation WHEN AND AFTER I read and study it. God willing, I will begin Revelation very soon and I am able to use Daniel as a reference, source and its interpretations to help me unpack it. Until then, I have no idea what is within those very cryptic verses. But I will tell you what I found in studying Daniel that will apply to Revelation: there will generally be two major camps of those scholars, academics and theologians that have interpreted Revelation in different ways. Each of the two camps are convinced they have the correct interpretation and believe they can support their views. Meaning, just as with Daniel, at least one of the two groups must be wrong (not on every issue but on most of the important issues within the many prophecies). This will be repeated in Revelation, but I need to go through their arguments and use my interpretations found in Daniel to get through this study.

Now, since you claim to know both Daniel and Revelation so well, you would have the advantage over me. You could provide your interpretations on Daniel and also show how they are relevant in Revelation.

Would you agree to go through Daniel here in this topic? We can begin with chapter 2 and the 4 kingdoms and walk through each verse. We can skip chapters 3,4,5, and 6 and move right into the sister chapter of chapter 2 - chapter 7. 
 

This should be an enjoyable and informative discussion on Daniel. It won’t take very long before it becomes clear where, when and why our interpretations separate (and they will quickly separate). 
 

 

Revelation Man - seems like you went dark on me. 

Would you like to proceed?

[douggg]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

First, I don't know why you feel the need to bring in any verses in Revelation into this issue. There maybe references (same of different) in Revelation that speak to these days but these two time elements do not need / require one to wait until Revelation would be written to be interpreted.

Actually, the time of the end abomination of desolation setup in Daniel 12:11-12 cannot be known what it is apart from Revelation 13.    The false prophet person who has it done in Revelation 13 is not mentioned in Daniel.

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

However, one can not go forward to Revelation to interpret Daniel. This does NOT mean the two books will not agree, but Daniel speaks about Daniel first and foremost and then the Daniel interpretations can be used to unpack Revelation.

Not only can Daniel not be understood apart from Revelation, but also from the four gospels, the book of Acts, and the letters (epistles) books from John and Paul.

All written centuries after Daniel.

btw, who told you that you must "unpack" Daniel before attempting to "unpack" Revelation?

 

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Please leave out ANY reference you may want to bring in from Revelation. They do NOT assist us in dealing with the identifcation of these two time elements or the 8:25 verse questions mentioned above.

Charlie, I love God and am thankful for all of His Word and what He has taught me.   So, no, I am not going to do that.  

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by douggg

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

Actually, the time of the end abomination of desolation setup in Daniel 12:11-12 cannot be known what it is apart from Revelation 13.    The false prophet person who has it done in Revelation 13 is not mentioned in Daniel.

Not only can Daniel not be understood apart from Revelation, but also from the four gospels, the book of Acts, and the letters (epistles) books from John and Paul.

All written centuries after Daniel.

btw, who told you that you must "unpack" Daniel before attempting to "unpack" Revelation?

 

Charlie, I love God and am thankful for all of His Word and what He has taught me.   So, no, I am not going to do that.  

 

Thanks Dougg, and I understand. 

[Charlie744]

On 11/27/2023 at 9:25 PM, Michael37 said:

@Charlie744 This resource is brilliant

OldTestamentReferencesintheBookofRevelation.pdf (johnsnotes.com)

Michael, thank you for this link. I will soon attempt to dive into Revelation and this should be a nice start to relating the two books. 
 
Are you aware of any very good discussions on these two books? I am aware that my Daniel interpretations will not agree with today’s accepted interpretations that will / might be used as a comparison to Revelation, but it would still be worth reading. 
 

Thanks, Charlie 

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Michael, thank you for this link. I will soon attempt to dive into Revelation and this should be a nice start to relating the two books. 
 
Are you aware of any very good discussions on these two books? I am aware that my Daniel interpretations will not agree with today’s accepted interpretations that will / might be used as a comparison to Revelation, but it would still be worth reading. 
 

Thanks, Charlie 

Have a go at this Daniel Revelation Comparison: