The Iconoclast: Hero or Villian?

[Neighbor]

9 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

Everyone is an iconoclast when it's a belief they don't have. The amusing part is they never understand why everyone in that community hates them.

Not at all. "Everyone" is neither destructive, nor hated.

 

[Sower]

17 hours ago, Michael37 said:

They pop up from time to time, have a different take on things, demand change, ruffle feathers, and leave many wondering whether they are heroes or villains.

I reckon those words apply to myself as spoken from most of my relatives many moons ago.

If I never questioned "traditions" I would still be in the RCC kneeling down before the graven images, holding beads.
And with the truth I have been entrusted, to beseech those friends neighbors and so many relatives still  in darkness, to come out from among them. I walk in the light I have and share it as we all should, and not be ashamed of the gospel.
This is often viewed as an attack upon their bedrock of belief, their man made "visible" hope.
I, not others,  will be held accountable for all light I have been given, being a good steward of it, or not.
And understanding recently more fully the Bema seat judgement, all the more as the day approaches.
 

                            "We walk by Faith and not by sight"

 

 

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

I guess I see this in several different ways all depending on the specifics. Some religious institutions are the bane of spiritual progress. Did this pastor feel led of the Lord to challenge whatever these norms were, or was he on a personal mission?

If the apple is bad do we look for the best places to eat or throw it out and get another? Most today will keep the apple and live with it, but a few will seek a better apple.

Not sure if it is worship practices being challenged or the trappings of religion as symbols. From what I am gathering, it wasn't the latter. How much autonomy should a pastor have as part of a large religious system? And if changes are made in those confines, are they building up or tearing down? All things should be done with love and others in mind.

Obviously the church lost members over it. Yet churches loose members all the time. It's important to know why. Some of it could be simply life changes. Other of it could be those who are never happy, or haven't found a situation they feel they can grow in.

Churches like team players and most who join agreed to or at least accepted the team rules as the status quo. But what if changes happen while there? This can be difficult for some. They traded up the team leaders and changed the game, then what?

So I guess I'm left wondering about the specifics . What was this pastor trying to change and why? Apparently what he was doing was seen as negative by many.

At the chuch I am in now before we joined, there was a pastor there who had a special burden for homosexuals, so apparently many of his sermons floated around this theme, which distanced many who were there regularly and didn't feel the messages were especially pertinent to them. I can sympathize with that. I don't know exactly what happened but he left and subsequent men led the church. Sometimes a person isn't necessarily trying to make changes, it's just who they are and what they feel led in. 

I attend two assemblies. One of them is recently getting another man as pastor for reasons I won't get into here. This man is an intellectual type but lacks some on the social scale. This gave me bad vibes right away. His wife OTOH is great at it. Secondly for being newly installed it doesn't look like he is serious to me as he is in and out when he wants to travel. This is a no pay situation where the guy is retired, and it appears from my judgemental flesh that he isn't really serious or super motivated like I had hoped. It seems he sees it as something to do.A filler. Only God knows his heart, but my future participation in that group hinges on this. If I don't see a motivated leader and see someone "playing church" instead. I doubt I'll hang around. It's a bane of small groups. 

Too many churches today are playing church and not enough of them are willing to do what it takes to equip the saints and go to the harvest.

I see some of your points. Shortly after I became a member of our church, our pastor was evidently asked to resign. I was not privy to the reasons why or the particulars. Here we are without a pastor, and no one seems to know what to do next. Someone is sure good at firing, but not stepping up to hire another.

Long story short, we received some good training from a long-time pastor from our affiliation with Western District Baptist Association, on how to hire a new pastor. Doing it right involves much more than I expected. Anyway, I do not know if it is nationwide or in our area, but there is a severe shortage of pastors, much less qualified ones, I eventually discovered.

No one was anxious or wanted to participate in a selection committee, interview, background check, ask questions on candidates’ theology and beliefs, pay and benefits, etc. As a very new member, I was asked to join the ‘two ladies’ who reluctantly agreed to be part of the selection process and committee. I immediately thought this is overwhelming, and said I needed time to think about it.

I reasoned something was not right with this church and started attending another church for a few months. I had felt the Holy Spirit direct me to this church initially and again when I started attending another church, so I returned.

In my absence, the Lord blessed them, or they got lucky, but we have a God-fearing, Bible-believing, Gospel-preaching pastor once again. He has never preached anything I disagree with.

Our church membership and attendance are rapidly dwindling. We have many from our community who no longer attend. Please keep in mind I am not whatsoever criticizing or disparaging our pastor. He strictly preaches the truth from the Bible. By no means am I judging or complaining. However:

The constant theme every Sunday morning, evening, and Wednesday service, is how bad we are as sinners (that is so true). If I am an example of what all the others feel when they walk out the church door, they feel depressed at the constant barrage of how bad we are.

The Bible is roughly one-third prophetic, and about one-half pertains to the generation we are living in, in my opinion. In the times we are living, seeing all these geopolitical events and alignments unfolding, and this new Israeli war, the threat of Iran and Damascus, Syria. We hear nothing from the pulpit on biblical prophecy.

Maybe there is just something wrong with me.

[Starise]

13 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I see some of your points. Shortly after I became a member of our church, our pastor was evidently asked to resign. I was not privy to the reasons why or the particulars. Here we are without a pastor, and no one seems to know what to do next. Someone is sure good at firing, but not stepping up to hire another.

Long story short, we received some good training from a long-time pastor from our affiliation with Western District Baptist Association, on how to hire a new pastor. Doing it right involves much more than I expected. Anyway, I do not know if it is nationwide or in our area, but there is a severe shortage of pastors, much less qualified ones, I eventually discovered.

No one was anxious or wanted to participate in a selection committee, interview, background check, ask questions on candidates’ theology and beliefs, pay and benefits, etc. As a very new member, I was asked to join the ‘two ladies’ who reluctantly agreed to be part of the selection process and committee. I immediately thought this is overwhelming, and said I needed time to think about it.

I reasoned something was not right with this church and started attending another church for a few months. I had felt the Holy Spirit direct me to this church initially and again when I started attending another church, so I returned.

In my absence, the Lord blessed them, or they got lucky, but we have a God-fearing, Bible-believing, Gospel-preaching pastor once again. He has never preached anything I disagree with.

Our church membership and attendance are rapidly dwindling. We have many from our community who no longer attend. Please keep in mind I am not whatsoever criticizing or disparaging our pastor. He strictly preaches the truth from the Bible. By no means am I judging or complaining. However:

The constant theme every Sunday morning, evening, and Wednesday service, is how bad we are as sinners (that is so true). If I am an example of what all the others feel when they walk out the church door, they feel depressed at the constant barrage of how bad we are.

The Bible is roughly one-third prophetic, and about one-half pertains to the generation we are living in, in my opinion. In the times we are living, seeing all these geopolitical events and alignments unfolding, and this new Israeli war, the threat of Iran and Damascus, Syria. We hear nothing from the pulpit on biblical prophecy.

Maybe there is just something wrong with me.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Dennis. I like both groups I attend. In fact tonight is one of the meetings from the smaller church and I plan to be there. The other church is great too, but I still feel I'm a Baptist in a presbyterian church. I feel plenty welcome and there are wonderful believers here. I never fancied myself here and it is a little restrictive to me since I can't in all honesty agree with everything which means there are some doors closed to me. I had thoughts of ministry training in the other church. Sometimes the man the Lord has placed doesn't look like the right man, so maybe my lenses need cleaning. I do however, remember thinking to myself " Oh No this isn't going to fly". From all outward appearances a small church like this needs a serious kick start. And so far I haven't seen it. I tend to jump the gun as they say in trying to look at what I think works. 

I once had to leave a church because I was literally falling asleep in the pew. The pastor was the nicest guy you would ever want to meet, but in the pulpit he couldn't hold my attention. It wasn't just one off week, it was every week. I don't believe the man had that gift.He always was and always will be a good friend. He has since left the ministry to become a police officer. I stayed with that for a long time. When someone leaves in a small church it is more noticed, especially if they were in some key position. One member told me it felt like a divorce to see us go. I hated to do it, but felt I was just withering on the vine. 

Only God knows the heart or the reasons why we might leave an assembly, and for me those times have been times of tough decisions not to be taken lightly. There are excuses and there are reasons. I search my heart to make sure if something this drastic is called for, it's the latter. If anything attendance at the Presbyterian church has taught me that there are strong brothers and sisters in other churches besides baptist churches. Sincere people who love the Lord with all their heart.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

8 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

We are arriving at some thought-provoking historical territory we are calling icons. As you mentioned, the brazen serpent was dashed into dust because it had become an icon, or we could call it an idol too.

They do prefer you not call anything God commanded to be made an "idol" because that would mean that God sinned in commanding an image be made so they will call those things "icons". But even everything that did not command Moses to make its not called idols but icons also

Numbers 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Which also can be understood to be "figures of the true"

John 3:14-15  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

So Hezekiah just recognizes the thing for what it is (unlike the children of Israel)

2Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Its nothing really, its just a thing of brass, it has its significance in the true only

Nehushtan = "a thing of brass"

But they worship all the "nothings", even in respect to the things Moses made them, focusing on the thing of brass and lose sight of the true. It's almost as though these actually keep them from seeing that which is true.

That which represented Jesus Christ (in whom dwelled the fulness of the Godhead bodily) was  lifted up on a wood pole unto whom we look, who we are now "behold" and are healed.  Who took upon him our sin.

And in the context of the Godhead whether of gold, or silver, or stone or graven art and man's device Paul tells them

Acts 17:27 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

Additionally the wood and brass is mention here

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands,  that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood:
which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk

Now John says,

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Idols can be in ones here

Ezekiel 14:3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity 
before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?

Just as covetousness Mark 7:22 is that which comes from the heart is also idolatry (Col 3:5)

8 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

There have been and are strong arguments against placing pictures of Jesus/saints, statues, and even crosses in churches and wearing them.

It is interesting to follow the progression and history of the Ark of the Covenant, with the other two things placed inside along with the tablets of stone. The last time the Ark was opened, Aaron's budding rod and the golden cup of manna were missing.

Some postulate that over time they rotted away, but that does not seem reasonable for several reasons I will leave to logic. I suspect they were intentionally removed for the same reason as Hezekiah destroyed the brazen serpent.

Scripture mentions two firsts never repeated. The Devil contended for the body of Moses, and God Personally buried Moses in a secret location. I can think of several scriptural reasons, one of them being to prevent the veneration of Moses's dead corpse.

A personal one-on-one relationship and prayer to the Living Holy God is the only acceptable way. Bowing, kneeling before, and praying to or through anyone, thing, or icon, other than our Mediator and Savior is idolatry. As we are all aware, this ancient pagan tradition and practice has been passed down to the present day.

Through the ages including modern history, many pagans, cults, and demonic have thought there is spiritual power in religious icons too numerous to mention. If my historical memory serves, Hitler went all out trying to obtain a few religious relics thought to still survive.

I am reminded of a couple of instances where God commanded genocide to destroy every Canaanite man, woman, child, animal, and thing. I am led to think that even idols, inanimate things, and objects can contain demonic power, real or implied.

Not sure with the Ark, but it does say, 

Jerm 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, 
they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; 
neither shall they visit it; neither shall there be done any more.

Whereas in Hebrews it goes into what was being signified beyond the second vail. It then mentions very briefly the ark 
and over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat;

but adds, " of which we cannot now speak particularly." Hebrews 9:5

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest,
while as the first tabernacle was yet standing whereas now we are given to see the figure of the true in heaven Rev 11:19 

As far as bones go some churches worship bones to a degree that it resembles something out of a creepy movie, the walls are decorated in bones, the catacombs also.

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by AFlameOfFire
Just typos nothing evil

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Everyone is an iconoclast when it's a belief they don't have. The amusing part is they never understand why everyone in that community hates them.

Shalom, Slibhin.

I understand you, though I think "hates" might be too strong of a word. In my experience, it's the unusual belief which they might question and hate, not necessarily the person having the unusual belief, although I'm sure that some people let it escalate to that.

I have many such beliefs. For instance, I don't believe there's a "Heaven," per se, to which people will go when they die. The "Heaven" in the Tanakh is הַשָּׁמַיִם = "hashshaamayim" = "the skies" (in dual number), and even in the B'rit Chadashah (the New Covenant or "Testament"), the Greek words are ὁ οὐρανός = "ho ouranos" or its plural form οἱ οὐρανοί = "hoi ouranoi," also meaning "the sky" or "the skies," respectively.

That's not to say I don't believe in eternal life on a new earth with new skies, and a New Jerusalem, which Yesha`yahuw ("Isaiah") spoke about in his prophecy as did Yochanan ("John")  in the book of Revelation, but I don't believe that the Messiah will "reign forever from His Father's throne in heaven," and that makes me the oddball. I still believe that the Messiah is coming as a Victorious and Reigning Messiah forever, as the Lion of the tribe of Yhudah, and that He will fulfill the Davidic Covenant, which haShem promised to David in 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17. I believe in a literal resurrection, which I believe Y'chezk'Eel spoke about in "Ezekiel" 37, and I believe that HaShem will TOTALLY restore the Land to the children of Israel - ALL of them as He calls for them from the other nations wherever they were scattered. The Messiah, like David his ancestor, will reign from Yerushalayim; HOWEVER, He will reign on behalf of HaShem, just as King David did. He recognized that HaShem was the TRUE King of Israel, and so will David's heir, the ULTIMATE Messiah of HaShem! I believe that Psalm 2 will be LITERALLY fulfilled when HaShem installs His Messiah as Israel's King. The United Nations will NOT have a say in the matter!

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Agree to disagree about Isaiah and Ezekiel.

Are you a gnostic Christian and non-trinitarian, or into some sort of polytheism?

Shalom, Slibhin.

I am non-trinitarian. I believe there is only ONE G-D, but He DOES have a Son, as one can see in the Davidic Covenant in the King James Version:

[I use the KJV because it is public domain, it was an attempt to translate and transliterate the words of the Tanakh while English was young and still vibrant with cases and number; it makes a distinction, therefore, between the singular forms of the second person (thee, thou, thy, thine) from the plural forms (ye, you, your, yours); and it separated between "LORD" for HaShem, and "Lord" for Adoniy or Adonaay. Many English versions no longer make a distinction, as I believe they should.

My coloring scheme is this:
Green for narration,
Royal Purple for the words of HaShem,
Red for the words of HaShem's Messiahs, and
Blue for the words of anyone else, be they human or angelic (messengers from HaShem).]

Here's the Davidic Covenant in the KJV:

2 Samuel 7:1-17 (KJV) 

1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies; 2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet,

"See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains!"

3 And Nathan said to the king,

"Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee."

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 

5 "Go and tell my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD,

"'"Shalt THOU build ME an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, 'Why build ye not me an house of cedar?' "'

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"'"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies."

"'Also the LORD telleth thee that HE will make THEE an house. 

12 "'"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I WILL BE HIS FATHER, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. If he commit (be twisted into) iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Contrary to what some might say, this "seed" is NOT Shlomoh ("Solomon")!  Shlomoh became king BEFORE David "slept with his fathers." (See 1 Kings 1:28-53.) The future, ULTIMATE Messiah of HaShem is the One who shall build a Temple unto HaShem and His Kingdom will know no end!

Notice, too, that the sentence in verse 14, "I WILL BE HIS FATHER, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON," has NO "kaf-" prefix at all! The "kaf-" prefix is translated as the comparative words, "like" or "as." He did NOT say "I will be LIKE His Father, and He shall be LIKE my Son!" He said, "I will BE His Father, and He shall BE my Son!" Again, this is NOT talking about Shlomoh! This is talking about the ULTIMATE Messiah of HaShem, the One who will be KING FOREVER!

[Mr. M]

50 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

I am deeply confused. Do you believe Jesus is a deity? Is he 100% separate from G-d?

John 10: Tree of Life Version

22 Then came Hanukkah; it was winter in Jerusalem. 

23 Yeshua was walking in the Temple around Solomon’s Colonnade. 

24 Then the Judean leaders surrounded Him, saying, “How long will You hold us in suspense? If You are the Messiah, tell us outright!”

25 Yeshua answered them, “I told you, but you don’t believe! The works I do in My Father’s name testify concerning Me. 

26 But you don’t believe, because you are not My sheep. 

27 My sheep hear My voice. I know them, and they follow Me. 

28 I give them eternal life! They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. And no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 

30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Again the Judean leaders picked up stones to stone Him. 

32 Yeshua answered them, “I’ve shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone Me?”

33 The Judean leaders answered, “We aren’t stoning you for a good work, but for blasphemy. Though You are a man, You make Yourself God!”

34 Yeshua answered them, “Isn’t it written in your Writings, ‘I have said you are gods’? 

35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the Word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 

36 do you say of Him, the One the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You speak blasphemy,’ because I said, ‘I am Ben-Elohim’?

[Retrobyter]

19 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

I am deeply confused. Do you believe Jesus is a deity? Is he 100% separate from G-d?

Shalom, Slibhin.

Let me make this clear: He WAS the Word of G-D, and as such was part of G-D. But, "the Word was made flesh." As such, He is no longer infinite nor does He have all the attributes of G-D. He never claimed to have all knowledge. There were some things He did not know, but He was SHOWN by G-D much! He is now FULLY HUMAN, and lived among our ancestors for a time. He had to grow; He had to mature; He had to humble Himself, and follow the will of G-D. He was (and still is) called "the SON of G-D," but He never claimed to be G-D, once He was human. He PRAYED to G-D, and He recognized that G-D was His Father. He OBEYED His Father G-D in all things! In return, when He was baptized by Yochanan, G-D acknowledged HIM as His Son!

Matthew 3:13-17 (KJV)

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, 

"I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?"

15 And Jesus (Yeeshuwa`) answering said unto him, 

"Suffer (Allow) it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness."

Then he suffered (allowed) him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of G-D descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, 

"THIS is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!"

He was obedient unto G-D even to the point of death! But, He was HUMAN and He naturally wanted to avoid death! He prayed,

"O my Father, if it be possible, let this 'cup' pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt," and He agonized throughout the night because He KNEW (because it was revealed to Him) that He was about to die. Was He afraid to die? Possibly, but He also may have feared more being separated from His Father! He KNEW it was coming, when He would say, "My G-d, my G-d, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring (cries of distress)?" He had read and memorized the 22nd Psalm, a Psalm of His ancestor, David, who was also a prophet of G-D! He cried all night about it! In the end, however, He succumbed to His Father's Will and followed Him to the execution stake.

[Mr. M]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

The future, ULTIMATE Messiah of HaShem is the One who shall build a Temple unto HaShem and His Kingdom will know no end!

Notice, too, that the sentence in verse 14, "I WILL BE HIS FATHER, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON," has NO "kaf-" prefix at all! The "kaf-" prefix is translated as the comparative words, "like" or "as." He did NOT say "I will be LIKE His Father, and He shall be LIKE my Son!" He said, "I will BE His Father, and He shall BE my Son!" Again, this is NOT talking about Shlomoh! This is talking about the ULTIMATE Messiah of HaShem, the One who will be KING FOREVER!

2 Corinthians 6: Tree of Life Version

16 What agreement does God’s Temple have with idols?

For we are the temple of the living God—just as God said,

“I will dwell in them and walk among them;
    and I will be their God,
    and they shall be My people.
17 Therefore, come out from among them,
    and be separate, says Adonai.
Touch no unclean thing.
    Then I will take you in.
18 I will be a father to you,
    and you shall be My sons and daughters,
                    says Adonai-Tzva’ot.”

The Son of God is our God.

Hebrews 1:

8 But regarding the Son He says,

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
    and a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
    therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions.”

John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Yeshua said to Him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed? Blessed are the ones who have not seen and yet have believed!”

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and there is one Mediator between God and men—a human, Messiah Yeshua, 

6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony at the proper time.